to wonder how one could still be a member of the Catholic Church

[winkywinkola]

or any church that has a history of such utter cruelty?

I'm just listening to Radio 4's programme on the mass graves found in Ireland.

I read today that the Pope made some unofficial mention of 2% of priests being paedophiles. So what?

Is there any other institution that constantly ducks and dives to avoid responsibility for the sheer brutality of its actions?

I am aghast.

My sil is ardently Catholic. She and her dd go to church 4 times at the weekend. I've never discussed this with her but I am keen to know how modern Catholics - or those of other religions - reconcile their religion with such seemingly cruel institution.

Provocative? Perhaps.

Why did parents reject their pregnant daughters? Was it because they were told it was wrong to have sex outside of marriage by their religion?

Why were the women and their children then treated so brutally by those sadistic nuns?

Wrt 9/11 and 7/7 - the Islamic institutions of this country at least have totally condemned and distanced themselves from that branch of Islam.

Wrt Westminster, well, I have zero faith in politicians. I'm sure many others do too.

I don't know. I just don't get a sense of the outrage and disgust. I'm sure it's there but all I see as an outsider, is the maintenance of the status quo. I don't see any outrage or any real active, energetic pursuit of justice. Perhaps the media doesn't cover it enough.

I think Tim Mitchen succinctly sums up some of the key issues in this discussion -

Sorry, Minchin...

What biscuits said. That's a pretty arrogant assertion, OP, designed to offend, no?

I was confirmed Catholic as a child. As I got older I disliked most of the teachings but the basic premise - as with most if not all religions - is a good one.

People do bad things; in the name of religion or not and/or just because they want to.

This below is what non Catholics need to see and hear more of. We just don't.

"There is a huge gap between the teaching and SOME of the followers' behaviour. I am still part of the Catholic church and I do feel conflicted and have moments where I want to leave but what makes me stay are the priests I have known who give away the actual coats from their backs to homeless people who call at their door, who get arrested protesting against nuclear arms, for the ones who helped to get third world debt cancelled, the ones who struggled against apartheid, the ones who live alongside the shanty town families who have been moved from their homes to make way for the world cup,, for the, perhaps surprisingly, feminist education I got at my Catholic girls school, for Dorothy Stang, for Oscar Romero, for Mother Teresa, for Denis Hurley, for Pax Christi, for CAFOD.

The child abuse and its cover up was and is shameful but there is an awful lot of good in the church too and plenty of people, like me, who are trying to build a betterone for the future."

I don't know who the head of the Muslim faith is, but is there any evidence that he/she knew about 9/11 and covered it up/protected criminals RJ? If not, then it's not the same.

The BBC isn't a religion so it's also a bit different.

The wholesale rejection of unmarried pregnant girls/women was fuelled by Catholicism but I really don't think you can let people off the hook that easily.

Too easy for people to say 'my Auntie Mary spent her life in a Magdalene Laundry, it was the church's fault'.

It was the church's fault, but it was also her parents fault, the village's fault........

Lyingwitch, there is a big difference between an assertion and a question.

Is it provocative to ask questions? Then so be it.

There are some hideous truths that I have felt not even acknowledged let alone apologised for.

I wonder how anyone can still be Muslim given the inherent support of terrorism? Or Jewish given the actions of Israel re. Gaza? There are people who believe that the head if the CoE ordered the murder of her Daughter in Law - how can anyone be a member of that Church?

Many PP are saying yes, it's awful, but we still believe in the teachings, so we stay.

So I wonder just what would make a Catholic feel strongly enough to leave, if not institutionalised abuse and decades of lying about it?

I am Catholic by birth but rejected the church after studying and closely following the abuse scandal that erupted around 2006. There is a particular documentary about an Irish priest in the USA which made me physically ill. I blocked out the name of it but it changed my life. I sadly had DD baptised as catholic but after that didn't take her.

My mother is still a catholic and I avoid the subject for huge rows and fallings out with her. She just can't get that if you worship at the church you are part of what they stood for.

The personal is political!!

"I wonder how anyone can still be Muslim given the inherent support of terrorism? Or Jewish given the actions of Israel re. Gaza?"

See this is an interesting point too. So Muslims have an inherent support of terrorism? Who says?

And then Jewish people bomb Muslims who apparently have an inherent support of terrorism and who have been sending rockets to Israel pretty regularly anyway. Fulfilling their terrorist inclinations?

It's time to abandon all religion and set up our own version!

No outraged it's NOT different it's about supporting a flawed organisation.

Just for reference there is no one leader of the muslim faith but those acts were committed in the name of every Muslim.

Perhaps I would be better saying its more like asking how Germans could remain German after ww2.

If you are catholic and you believe and have faith, you can abhor the acts while still holding onto the faith.

And no I am not catholic actually.

'So I wonder just what would make a Catholic feel strongly enough to leave, if not institutionalised abuse and decades of lying about it?'

For older committed Catholics, there probably isn't much that would make them leave. But taking Ireland as an example, among my generation there is just a general shift away from religion.

People are setting up their own primary schools to make sure their kids have a non denominational education. These schools are hugely over-subscribed.

I welcome a more secular Ireland.

Yeah crackpot theories that the Queen had Diana killed is the same as the Pope covering for known paedophile priests Burthas, what a great point.

Well you call it a question, Winky, I call it an assertion because of the way you have phrased it. It's in my least tolerated format, along the lines of "How could you get in bed with him every night, OP, eurgh, I couldn't"... as often posted on 'relationships board'; that's how I read it. It's unhelpful and highly judgemental.

Religion and/or politics; guaranteed to start a bunfight. You're within your rights to start one though if you want, I suppose.

Having witnessed the apparent brainwashing regarding the spoken word in mass, (the replies come out so without obvious 'thought', it's scary) I have no doubt that behaviours are absolutely default and no real consciousness is applied when following teachings.

By judging a religion on the teachings not the followers?

That's the wrong way round. After all we all know Catholics who are nice people. It's the teachings that are the root of the problem.

I get that people want to keep their faith, but if you believe in god and Jesus do you think they require you to join a particular club run by a particular group of men in order to get to heaven? Why not speak to your god directly.

Thats the same as saying how can anyone be Muslim because of 9/11

Actually it's not quite since blowing up buildings is not itself a mainstream Islamic belief. However if you said "how can anyone be Muslim when they teach that women are there to be used and that cutting little girls is fun" you'd have a better analogy.

I don't think any religion stands up to scrutiny tbh.

Back I used 9/1q because it was carried out in the name of all Muslims (though not on their behalf if I am making any sense).

Lyingwitch, it's highly judgemental to ask how one could be part of a Church that has allowed paedophilia and abject cruelty to be part of its institution?

Oh okay then.

Let's all keep it schtum and under our hats and not discuss it at all. What a good idea.

If people are unable to respond to my query without starting a bun fight - and they have so far - then brilliant.

As previous posters have said, none of the religions stand up to close scrutiny. You're pinpointing one and basically asking 'How could you??'. That's not a discussion.

You mention paedophilia... what has religion to do with that? Paedophiles are prevalent across the whole of society. Whether they are Catholic or affiliated to some other religion, they're paedophiles.

You meant your 'question' to be provocative; you can ask what you what but you have to accept that people have the right to challenge your meaning based on what you write.

Yanbu. The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for. why are their priests still sworn to.celibacy? It's an unnatural existence and one quite a few of them seem to struggle with

Because it's MY church too. I've had huge rows with people in church. Marriage equality was a biggie, partly because of my own sexual orientation but also as a matter of social justice and because I believe that we were made in the image of God, all of us, not just some of us. I also take great issue with people who use the 'it's part of my faith' as an excuse for twattery or as a reason to be thoughtlessly 'anti' anything when part of your faith as a Catholic is to obey your own conscience even if it is in contradiction with the church. It is part of the catechism that you cannot compel someone to believe something which they do not hold to be true. I've had periods where I've drifted away but I always come home again. The Church has done a lot of shitty things, and continues to do so and I and many others continue to call them out on it but then there is CAFOD and St VdP and my RadFem Religious sisters, Sr Simone Campbell and the nuns on the bus. It's also about the sacraments, my faith, my Catholic community. I can and do say that the criminal behaviour of people in the church and the institutional cover up is a disgrace and I can say, loudly, that I disagree theologically with some of the teachings but I can't can't conveniently not believe in the resurrection or communion etc. or some of the other things that make me specifically Catholic rather than another denomination.

Reread my op Lyingwitch. I said ANY religion.

Yes, paedophiles are everywhere.

The Catholic Church however merely moved its problem paedophile priests around and hid them. Never hinted them down for prosecution until recent outrage has caught up with them. Now they are taking some action. Not much but some.

Some people in the Catholic Church

Not all of them