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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder how one could still be a member of the Catholic Church

275 replies

winkywinkola · 13/07/2014 21:30

or any church that has a history of such utter cruelty?

I'm just listening to Radio 4's programme on the mass graves found in Ireland.

I read today that the Pope made some unofficial mention of 2% of priests being paedophiles. So what?

Is there any other institution that constantly ducks and dives to avoid responsibility for the sheer brutality of its actions?

I am aghast.

My sil is ardently Catholic. She and her dd go to church 4 times at the weekend. I've never discussed this with her but I am keen to know how modern Catholics - or those of other religions - reconcile their religion with such seemingly cruel institution.

Provocative? Perhaps.

OP posts:
Carrie5608 · 15/07/2014 23:39

Christina this is what the Archbishop of Dublin had to say on abuse. ( A bishop currently in office.)

The crisis of the sexual abuse of children in the Church is not a chapter of the past history of the Church. Abuse can and does still take place. Abuse will remain a wound in the side of the Church until the day on which every single survivor of abuse has achieved the personal healing he or she deserves.

My starting point in any personal reflection on the scandal of sexual abuse is always that what happened should never have happened in the Church of Jesus Christ. We can argue that the sexual abuse of children takes place right across society and that it is unfair to single out the Catholic Church. We can regurgitate statistics which will tell us that the incidence of such abuse is not significantly higher within the Catholic clergy than in society. But if we come back and repeat to ourselves that what happened should never have happened in the Church of Jesus Christ then we have to put all the comforting statistics to one side and begin to think in a different light.

The sexual abuse of children on the scale in which it happened should never have occurred in the Catholic Church because Jesus himself tells us that children are a sign of the kingdom of God. This means that our understanding of faith and of the kingdom is somehow measured in the manner in which we protect and respect and cherish children or in which we fail children. We know well the strong words of Jesus about those who would injure or harm children.

We need to develop a new awareness that what has happened has wounded the entire Church and that now the entire Church is called to put right what has happened. The entire Church is called to put itself right in its relations with the kingdom and with Jesus Christ. Healing is not just a question for the counsellors; it is a theological and ecclesiological necessity.

The only Church response must be one which attempts to bring healing to a wounded Church through robustly responding to all those who have been wounded by abuse. The healing of the Church comes through how the Church works to heal survivors.

The Church must not just be transformed into a place where children are safe. It must also be transformed into a privileged place of healing for survivors. It must be transformed into a place where survivors, with all their reticence and with all their repeated anger towards the Church, can genuinely come to feel that the Church is a place where they will encounter healing. We are not that kind of Church yet: and by far.

The Church which talks abut a preferential option for the poor must show unflinchingly a preferential option for those who have been victims of abuse within its fold. There are still within the Church some who play down the realities of abuse, or who take short cuts with regard to established norms and guidelines. In doing so, they damage the Church’s witness to the healing power of Jesus Christ. There is nothing more hurtful to survivors than to find the Church proclaiming norms and then to find that they are not being followed. I was struck to read in some of the National Reports for this Conference that there are still dioceses or Religious Congregations which opt out of National norms.

The Church can and should ensure adequate counselling for victims and their families. But it must do more. Healing cannot be delegated. The Church must become the bosom of Christ which lovingly embraces wounded men and women, with all the brutality and unattractiveness of wounds. Wounds cannot be sanitised from a distance. The Good Samaritan is the one who carries the wounded man in his own arms.

Bishops and superiors have to ensure that survivors are made feel truly welcome when they turn to Church authorities. One survivor told me that while she was received by her local priest correctly, in the sense that all the boxes of the norms were correctly ticked, she still had the enduring impression that the priest would have much preferred that she had not come to him and that she we would go away as quickly as possible and that the counsellors would take over.

The words of Jesus about leaving the ninety-nine to go out to find the one who is lost, refers also to our attitude to victims. To some it might seem less than prudent to think that the Church would go out of its way to seek out even more victims and survivors. There are those who say that that would only create more anguish and litigation and that it would be asking for trouble and would be more than a little ingenuous. The problem is that what Jesus says about leaving the ninety and going out after the one who is lost is in itself unreasonable and imprudent, but, like it or not, that it precisely what Jesus asks us to do.

Jesus teaches us through parables that are all marked by exaggeration. They are all about something that we can never figure out within our own human categories: the gratuitousness and superabundance of God’s love which always requires us to go the extra mile beyond what is humanly considered as prudent or appropriate or even the best. It is however when we reflect that superabundant love of God in the way we live in the Church that we also see fruits produced which go beyond human expectation. Remember those twelve baskets of food which remain after Jesus had undertaken the humanly unreasonable task of feeding a large crowd with meagre means. Jesus’ generosity goes way beyond human prudence.

We have to reach out to all those who are involved in abuse. We have a responsibility towards perpetrators to bring them to a realisation of what they have done and to make reparation through living a different life. Jesus is the one who shows mercy, but not cheap forgiveness. Careful monitoring and support of perpetrators is a contribution to creating a safe environment for children within the Church as well as helping perpetrators to lead more healthy lives.

Our care must also reach out to the many who may seem only to have been marginally touched by abuse. I think of parish communities. I spent an evening only last week with a small parish community whose priest had recently been imprisoned for serious abuse. It was a community whose trust in themselves and in the Church had been deeply wounded.

Our care must reach out in a special way to our young people who are hyper-sensitive to any contrast between what the Church preaches and what is done within its walls. Many young people have been wounded in their ability to come to know Jesus because of their disgust at what has happened to children in the Church.

The answers to all these multiple wounds will not come from slick public relations gestures or even from repeated words of apology. They will come from creating a new vision of a healing Church. A healing Church will not be from the outset a perfect Church. The Church must first of all recognise within her own life how compromise and insensitivity and wrong decisions have damaged the witness of Church. The art of healing is learned only in humility. Arrogance is never the road towards healing. Healing is not something we can package and hand over safe and sound to someone else and then we can go off safely and happily on our own way. Healing involves journeying together. The healer needs humility and personal healing if he or she is to journey really with those who are wounded. The duration of the process of healing is not measured by the time on our watch, but by the watch and the time of the other.

The crisis of the sexual abuse of children over these past decades has wounded the Church of Jesus Christ. The response must come from the entire Church which will only attain the healing it desires when it welcomes our brothers and sisters who have survived abuse as Jesus would have welcomed them. We are not there to tell the survivors what they have to do, but together to find new ways of interacting with respect and care. I can say that I have never gone away from a conversation with a survivor of child sexual abuse without having leaned something new, even if our encounter may have been marked by anger and aggression towards the Church. My ministry has greatly benefited from what I have learned – and at times learned in a hard way – from survivors. That is why I ask not just their forgiveness for what happened to them, but I am grateful to them for what they have done for me.

christinarossetti · 15/07/2014 23:51

Great words.

If all Bishops and others in office in the Catholic Church acted in accordance with their sentiment, this debate wouldn't even need to happen.

Unfortunately, they haven't and don't so here we are.

flipflop, no I'm not missing the point. I genuinely don't understand how you can say someone is 'anti-child abuse' when they're obstructing the actions of the CJS and continue to cover up the atrocities that have been committed.

The morals of the leader of the Church are part of this debate - a very key part, and I don't see anyone saying that everyone who defines themselves as a Catholic shares those morals.

brdgrl · 15/07/2014 23:52

Very few people who miss a point (multiple points?) are aware that they have.

Hakluyt · 16/07/2014 05:58

The trouble is the I think the Catholic church is (so far) in a unique position with reward to child abuse. Yes of course other institutions are also guilty as hell, and there is far more to emerge.

But. The Catholic Church as a whole and its priests as individuals had a unique position of trust, duty of care and power. And one of the church's main reasons for existence is to set out moral codes and police the behaviour of its adherents. So it isn't on to compare the church to the BBC, for example.

Flipflops7 · 16/07/2014 08:38

I think that holds true for any church, Hakluyt, also for any school or scout group or children's home for that matter. I entirely agree with you that that would distinguish such institutions from, for instance, the BBC.

Christina, I'll have to give up I'm afraid. I read your last sentence and threw my hands up. Patience was never my strong suit anyway.

Brdgrl - QUITE.

Hakluyt · 16/07/2014 09:22

"I think that holds true for any church, Hakluyt, also for any school or scout group or children's home for that matter. I entirely agree with you that that would distinguish such institutions from, for instance, the BBC."

Absolutely. Has any other church, as far as we know, has such a history of child abuse, of concealing and protecting abusers and of ill treatment of the abused? I don't think that a scout group or children's home, however ghastly any abuse that happens in those is, compare - it's the level of institutional condoning and complicity that marks out the Catholic Church.

Flipflops7 · 16/07/2014 10:05

"As far as we know".

Now there is breaking news. We continue to come to know more, though.

Pangurban · 16/07/2014 11:24

I think the original post was about the ordinary churchgoer and their relationship with the church in light of the abuses.

Of course no other church will compare to the Catholic Church as an institution. It's one huge multinational run along imperial lines. You would have to scale up any other church, the scout group and children's home enormously and give them the same type of governance if you were going to compare apples and apples. You would also have to give them the same foothold where they ran the same amount of social services carte blanche and universally. Hospitals, schools, childrens homes. Ran countries social systems really. Unfortunately, maybe without the external checks and balances which are desirable with such power.

But is it really about saying that abuse is bigger and badder than this? Is it a contest about which institution's betrayal is the worst?

Things need to change, protection measures put in place and the law enforced. I believe (hope) this is happening. People have a confidence and are less deferential now too (maybe).

brdgrl · 16/07/2014 11:37

The comparison with other institutions is absolutely relevant, though, to the original question, which is about, at its core, how individuals rationalize their continued participation in/support (whether active or tacit) for an institution that they know to be badly flawed.

There is no one reading this, I am prepared to wager, who lives his or her life in such a way that they do not do exactly the same thing. One can present reasons to explain why they do so, and those may be very good reasons. But in every case, it comes down to an individual calculation of the tangible and intangible benefits of remaining with the institution; the level of inconvenience or deprivation resulting from breaking with the institution; and a prediction of the tangible and intangible benefits of having made such a break.

There is a horrible self-righteousness and yes, a terrible hypocrisy, behind the idea that Catholics should abandon all that they value in their relationship to the Church or Church community, in order to show themselves to be morally upright.

VerityWaves · 16/07/2014 11:51

Please please watch the film:

" Deliver us from Evil" 2006, Amy J Berg
It's on you tube in segments.

Pangurban · 16/07/2014 12:01

Brdgrl, I don't disagree with anything you have said there. However, I don't know if your ordinary 70 year old parishioner equivocates quite so much (of any denomination). They get spiritual comfort and support (community too) and their relationship with their church is not on a policy or political level.

When I said I think things are changing and procedures and laws enforced, I didn't just mean the Catholic church either. I meant across society.

Carrie5608 · 16/07/2014 12:21

Verity ffs that film will Trigger things for a huge amount of people and I really think it needs to come with a warning with regard to that!

No one is arguing that these things didn't happen, it is abundantly clear they did.

Hakluyt · 16/07/2014 12:24

"There is a horrible self-righteousness and yes, a terrible hypocrisy, behind the idea that Catholics should abandon all that they value in their relationship to the Church or Church community, in order to show themselves to be morally upright."

I don't think for me it's that so much as the fact that so long as people carry on going to church as normal, they are sending a message to the Church hierarchy that they are happy with what they are doing about the issue. Which presumably they arn't?

Oh, and why on earth should "the average 70 year old" not equivocate as much as someone of any other age?

FrozenAteMyDaughter · 16/07/2014 12:34

I don't think for me it's that so much as the fact that so long as people carry on going to church as normal, they are sending a message to the Church hierarchy that they are happy with what they are doing about the issue. Which presumably they arn't?

It will send absolutely no message to the Church about people's feelings on this issue whether they attend Church or don't. People are stopping going to Church for all sorts of reasons these days, high amongst them simple apathy and not fancying it on a Sunday and the Church knows that. Whether people attend Church or not also has no relationship with how they feel about how it conducts itself on anything - it is to do with individuals' own relationship with God and their faith. Again the Church knows that.

The only way anyone sends any sort of message to the Church about their views on anything is to get involved and to tell Priests or other members of the hierarchy or to write, ideally to the Pope.

ghostsdonttalk · 16/07/2014 12:36

Hakluyt for me the church is worth fighting for. We stayed in to engage and fight from within for change and to get rid of those damaging children.

A few years ago a number of parents locally refused to let the local Cardinal do confirmation they sent him a message saying he wasn't putting a hand on any of their children and he had to ask another bishop to do it. I wouldn't necessarily agree with the way it was done but I respect they fact that they stayed in AND had their voices heard.

Hakluyt · 16/07/2014 12:38

"The only way anyone sends any sort of message to the Church about their views on anything is to get involved and to tell Priests or other members of the hierarchy or to write, ideally to the Pope."

Well, one hopes that everyone who toddles along to Mass on a Sunday has done this?

Carrie5608 · 16/07/2014 12:46

Hakluyt i find that deeply offensive. I can assure you no one who "toddles" along to mass on a sunday does so as a statement of support for child abuse or how it was handled by the church. How bloody dare you suggest so!

windchime · 16/07/2014 12:46

The same kind of people who still have Rolf Harris artwork hanging in their homes Confused

Hakluyt · 16/07/2014 12:54

"Hakluyt i find that deeply offensive. I can assure you no one who "toddles" along to mass on a sunday does so as a statement of support for child abuse or how it was handled by the church. How bloody dare you suggest so!"

I'm sure they don't. But I would be interested to know what they are doing to make sure the church hierarchy knows that they do not find what they have done about it so far adequate. I suggested a boycott. Someone else said that wouldn't be effective, and letters to the Pope was the only effective thing to do. I expressed my hope that all practising Catholics have written such letters.

NotNewButNameChanged · 16/07/2014 12:54

Martin Luther King once said:

“It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation. Not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people who sit around and say, "Wait on time.”

I can understand people staying in the Catholic Church who strongly believe that by staying they can make things better. But unless they have individually taken some action, even merely writing to the Pope, then they are doing nothing and contributing to an appalling silence and indifference.

So, Carrie abnd brdgrl - have both of you written to the Pope?

allhailqueenmab · 16/07/2014 13:01

Something that Christians understand and non-Christians like to misunderstand and hijack for the benefit of boosting their own sense of superiority, is the difference between examining one's own conscience and asking of oneself the most that one can give, and sticking your own fucking stupid nose in everyone else's conscience, as if you can see it, which of course you can't, but you dare to act as if you can because perhaps the member of the church has made a statement (by being a member) about a commitment to ethics which is bigger and broader and braver than you would ever dare make yourself.

That is aimed at Hakluyt by the way, in case (s)he misses it

Hakluyt · 16/07/2014 13:11

"perhaps the member of the church has made a statement (by being a member) about a commitment to ethics which is bigger and broader and braver than you would ever dare make yourself."

Just wondering how that statement would manifest itself in this case......

Carrie5608 · 16/07/2014 13:12

Notnew what exactly do you think four million letters to the pope would achieve? I am active in my parish with regard to safeguarding it is now in the hands of the laity. Each parish has a safe guarding officer who is a lay person. No longer do issues go to the priest.

Vice Rolf Harris is an individual displaying his art supports that individual. Going to mass supports Jesus and even Hakulyt has yet to suggest he was an abuser!

Carrie5608 · 16/07/2014 13:16

Sorry Windchime not vice. ( apologies vice)

Hakluyt · 16/07/2014 13:18

Carrie- are you happy with what the Catholic hierarchy has done/is doing to investigate and combat child abuse within the church?