to wonder how one could still be a member of the Catholic Church

[winkywinkola]

or any church that has a history of such utter cruelty?

I'm just listening to Radio 4's programme on the mass graves found in Ireland.

I read today that the Pope made some unofficial mention of 2% of priests being paedophiles. So what?

Is there any other institution that constantly ducks and dives to avoid responsibility for the sheer brutality of its actions?

I am aghast.

My sil is ardently Catholic. She and her dd go to church 4 times at the weekend. I've never discussed this with her but I am keen to know how modern Catholics - or those of other religions - reconcile their religion with such seemingly cruel institution.

Provocative? Perhaps.

But those "some people" haven't been held to account. Why not?

Haven't got a clue

But I doubt it's down to the congregation at the Catholic Church up the road

As with everything that's happening lately it will be down to those in positions of power twisting the rules to suit themselves

I read your op fine the first time, Winky, you specifically refer to Catholics throughout your post and highlighted the Catholic religion in your title.

I'm obviously labouring a point that you don't accept but I think you perhaps don't have much understanding of the religion other than to decry that there isn't evidence of public outrage of cruelty and paedophilia related to Catholicism.

"Not All Catholics"

Again and again, atrocities are exposed and it's always the Catholic church.

The church's stance on paedophilia, contraception, women's rights, it's all completely inexcusable.

The catholic church has improved a hell of a lot since the middle ages when the reformation took place and protestantism was born. Many protestants including the C or E see themselves as part of a broader "catholic" church (written with a lower c).

I think it needs to be remembered that Jesus came to save the sinners rather than the rightous. Certainly the behaviour of some of the catholic hiacrchy has been similar to the pharises in Jesus' day. I feel its brave and refreshing for Pope Francis to admit that there is a huge problem. Before the advent of CRB checks I expect that 2% of people employed by the church of england, schools were completely unsuitable to work with children to put it politely.

Why don't people leave the catholic church? Well a faith is a very deep idological conviction. Just because there are bad people in a church doesn't stop people believing. The arguement for remaining catholic is that Jesus instructed that Peter was the first head of the church. The RC church is the continuing of that apostolic succession. (However the C of E have a different intepretation of apostolic succession.)

Jobs like priests, teachers, care home workers attract paedophiles like flies to a heap of dung. I imagine that in the third world its much harder to root out paedophiles. I suspect that many south american countries have a bigger problem than more wealthy european countries.

A big challenge of the 21st century is to protect every child on earth from perverts.

Don't think anyone is excusing the actions of the Catholic Church

Happy to agree that the Catholics church has masses of faults (like some other religions) and should deal with them

My point is that not all Catholics are kiddy fiddling, Protestant burning hypocrites. Some just believe in the God of their childhoods and try and lead by example

LyingWitch, erm, I was listening to a programme on Radio 4 this evening.

It was specifically about mass graves found in Ireland. Graves of women and children buried anonymously by those part of the Catholic Church.

Hence my post.

I have not seen much evidence of justice sought on the part of those deeply hurt and offended by this particular Church. I don't think anyone has, simply because there has not been a particular pursuit of justice.

Perhaps I too am labouring a point that you don't understand.

I don't actually have much evidence or understanding of this particular Church pursuing those who did/do much evil as members of the Church.

I then fail to see how one can have faith in that particular Church and then be a part of it. I am interested to hear how and many posters have responded. You, on the other hand, have merely said I was provocative to ask.

I personally think it's important to question. Perhaps you don't. Perhaps you feel it's "provocative" and equivalent to starting a bun fight.

"The Vatican has told the child sex abuse royal commission that it will not hand over all information about members of its clergy who abused children in Australia."

They are still trying to hide what they did. They don't want details of how they hid and supported the abusers coming out. The change of heart is just spin to keep us from acting against them.

ReallyTired if catholics are required by god to stay catholic what would they do if the pope ordered all good Catholics to abuse children?
Not that I think he is likely too, but you seem to be describing a situation in which they have no choice.

• Celibacy has nothing to do with paedophilia, at least not directly, in the sense that celibacy creates paedophiles. (It is probably true that if the Church did away with the requirement of celibacy, they would have a broader pool of 'applicants' and that would in turn affect their personnel decisions and as a result there would be less relocating, tolerance, and continued employment.)

• Catholicism does not create paedophiles. Anymore than Boy Scouting, football coaching, or teaching creates paedophiles.

• Paedophiles choose positions which allow them to operate without transparency, which put them into positions of power, and which offer access to children.

• It is the obligation of members of the Church to demand change. It will happen. It is happening. The Church belongs to the people, not the papacy.

Again and again, atrocities are exposed and it's always the Catholic church.
This is wholly untrue.

Winky, are you familiar with the history of the Protestant church in regards to Irish children?

brdgrl, I am not saying any other church is innocent. Far far from it. I am certain awful brutality has been carried out by all religions.

I am however, ignorant of the Protestant church's actions against Irish children. If they were as foul as the English government's actions against the Irish people, then I think my imagination can fill in the gaps.

Does religion have the power to either create apathy in the name of faith or is it fear?

That's the wrong way round. After all we all know Catholics who are nice people. It's the teachings that are the root of the problem.

Unwillingly dragged up Catholic before lapsing into joyous heresy, I am struggling to recall any sermon or tenet of the faith which prescribed fucking children.

Nope, no Catholic priest I ever came across said this was ok. The teachings were fairly clear on this point.

ReallyTired if catholics are required by god to stay catholic what would they do if the pope ordered all good Catholics to abuse children?
Not that I think he is likely too, but you seem to be describing a situation in which they have no choice

I have no idea. Its not a likely senario. I am not RC. Prehaps RC would join the C of E en masse. In reality I imagine that 99% of catholics would ignore what a pope says, just like they ignore instructions on contraception.

BackOnlyBriefly I'm C of E. There are major theological differences between the C of E and Roman Catholics.

Catholics believe that Popes can make infallible statements. They also believe in transtantiation of the bread and wine at communion. Protestants do not believe that anyone can make an infallible statement.

www.catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

Even if I am not a catholic I can see how people are idealogically driven to remain in the church they grew up in.

Catholics believe that Popes can make infallible statements

I don't know any who actually believe that. And I know plenty of frothers.

I'd be hard pushed to think of a Catholic who agrees that the Pope is infallible. Maybe an elderly aunt or two.

"I'd be hard pushed to think of a Catholic who agrees that the Pope is infallible. Maybe an elderly aunt or two."

That doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

I think that the doctrine of infalliblity was put out by a few corrupt Popes in the medievil times who fancied a bit of power. I doult that many people have ever believed that a fellow human being is infallible. Its a situation like the Emperor's new clothes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Interestingly netiher Pope Benedict XVI nor Pope John XXII believe/d they were infalliable.

Nobody is claiming Catholicism creates paedophiles.

It is it claimed, however, that Catholic Church, as well as other institutions, have hidden and as a result, enabled paedophilia.

A big problem is the confidentiality of the confession box. If a priest confesses that he buggered a choir boy to another priest, that priest is bound to take the secret to the grave.

It's interesting that the OP didn't want brdgirl to be expand on her comment about the protestant church in Ireland after starting a discussion intended to explore Catholicism's treatment of children in Ireland.

Papal infallibility is about applying the teaching of Jesus to new situations. It's not about the Pope being actually infallible or that what the pope says isn't open to interpretation. It relates to the teaching role of the church and is an extension of the idea that the teaching of the apostles by Jesus was infallible and it is supposed to be a 'guarantee' that a particular statement is original teaching and not some new doctrine. iirc it's only happened twice. I'd be amazed if pope Francis thought he was actually infallible but I'd put nothing past Benedict XVI

I was brought up Catholic Havent practised for over 22 years I left because of the misogyny Ive seen what its turned my DM into.

If celibacy is an unnatural state for the priests then it is an unnatural state for the nuns too.

I have issues with Catholicism because that's what I know, the op has issues because she listened to a documentary and her SIL is still a member. People talk about what they know. People on here having a go at her for only taking about Catholic's are missing the point. Most religions are homophobic, mysoginistic and judgey at their best and extremely dangerous at their worst.

There is a difference between ' being infallible' and 'making an infallible statement'. I think it is only when making certain proclamations that the Pope is considered to be infallible.

Annebullin, where did I say I don't want to know what the Protestant church had done? I said my imagination could fill in the gaps. Not the same as not wanting to know.

Gosh. There is some basic lack of English comprehension skills on this thread.