to be getting hot and bothered about the Vit D push?

[stinkingbishop]

I am prepared to be corrected but, having been hassled yet again by the HV about giving the twins Vit D because of the oft cited 'rise in Rickets', and saying, again, that they had a good diet, including oily fish, and play outside, and again being made to feel like I am stubborn/neglectful, I am getting rather worked up.

As I understand it, one of the main reasons we all have different coloured skin is because we have evolved to be able to absorb the optimum amount of Vit D from the sun (or rather for the sun to catalyse our absorption). Those in very sunny climes have darker skin so they don't overload; us peely wallies are that way because we have such brief windows. Interestingly, it's why Inuits have darker skin than, say, Scandinavians, because they eat so much fish. Very clever, Nature.

Vit D deficiency is caused by a mismatch between your current environment and what you evolved for. So someone whose ancestors lived in the Congo and is now in Stornoway really needs to eat a lot of herring. It's compounded by inner city living eg not having a garden, being inside most of the time. And also strikes some Asian populations because of vegetarian diets and processed flours used in eg chapatis, and because of a culture of covering up, especially girls, and staying at home.

I can't find anything online which shows the incidence of Rickets amongst caucasian children in Britain who play outside regularly (15 mins a day) and have a good diet. Is there anything? Have there been cases? Where should I be looking?

If it genuinely is a problem, I will calm down. But at the moment I just wonder to what extent this national, indiscriminatory push is motivated by the Government's desire not to be seen as racially profiling (but we SHOULD profile for some conditions, because your ethnicity does correlate with various issues and potential issues) and/or because they're using some research funded by whoever it is manufactures the supplements (I have no evidence of this because again I can't find anything).

So, do I calm down, or do I fire something off to whoever is in charge of briefing Health Visitors? It just seems yet another thing to beat nervous, unsure new Mums with. For the vast majority of whom, if I'm correct, this is a complete non-issue.

Can I please ask all of you talking about vitamin K to be specific - vitamin K usually refers to vitamin K1, gained from dark green leafy vegetables and used in the body to make clotting components.

It is very different to vitamin K2, which is probably the vitamin you mean and which should not be referred to as "vitamin K". You don't talk about Vitamin B and expect everyone to know which one you mean, do you? It's the same thing - they are different vitamins, with different sources and different effects in the body and should not be shorthanded to a point of nonsense.

ok....sorry, thumbwitch....I sort of tune my father out when he gets to supplements I don't need (I eat enough dark green leafy vegetables to be one in my next lifetime)...I will bone up on the K1's and K2's and get back to you all.

Rainyday...my dd had terrible eczema when we lived in London and then when she was just turning 3 we moved to Los Angeles and it totally and completely cleared up....I assumed it was a combination of sunshine and different water, but it's an interesting thought that it might just be the Vitamin D.

twosmall do you need a liquid? How old are your kids. I think that generally 1000-2000iu per day is the recommendation for young kids, but it may be less for infants. And of course...you should just get them tested.

Ooh Sofia who is your father?

Not difficult...since I am the only idiot who didn't realize I was supposed to have a pseudonym when I signed up for Mumsnet many moons ago....
His name is Dr. Bruce Ames.

I wonder how many depression diagnoses are actually vit d deficiencies?

well the first thing they tell you when you present with mild depressive symptoms is to get outside and exercise.

Yes, 7 but I bet they don't see "and leave off with the suncream, you need all the sun-related vitamin D you can get!" - so people would get outside and exercise (well, a few would!) and they'd make sure they were fully sun-screened up to avoid skin cancer.

I've ordered the testing kits this morning for DH, DS and I. Althgh not looking forward to doing the skin prick on DS! He is 13 and hates needles. A bit of bribery may be called for!

I reckon now that my mother is severely deficient. She is in a nursing home with Parkinson's and dementia but when she was still at he she never went out. Certainly never sat in the sun. Not great with veg or oily fish. Suffered from depression and joint pain.

Not everyone would wear sunscreen though, its pretty hit and miss here is Ireland (among adults) but I take your point.

Mil is out all the time in the garden but she wears long sleeved shirts and long trousers and is face down dealing with plants - her skin exposure is close to zero. She has chronic back pain - she's has all the tests MRI, chest X-rays etc but has she ever had her Vit D tested - no! How much money is being wasted treating diseases that could easily be diagnosed with a simple blood test and some advice to get outside without factor 50 or some cheap Vits.

Sorry thumbwitch. I guess I saw this as a chat with like minded folk cranks on the issue and I hadn't thought about terminology. Taking this further, I guess we should point out that D3 is the type of vitamin D you need to take (although I'm sure that sofia's dad would confirm further!). I also take magnesium citrate as some other kinds are hard to absorb....

You are absolutely right however, although K2 itself is also a minefield. I take it in the form of MQ7 (the solgar) one but others go on about MK2.

I'm really dull, aren't I? If I was smarter, and in another life, I would love to have a job like Sofia's dad. I find it fascinating.

rainy I guess your point underpins the one I made above. The NHS is too slow to react. So it spends so much money on highly medicalised tests. Perhaps in the future, we will have much more spent on preventative medicine.

I don't understand why nutrition, in the future, won't be seen as the front line defence for chronic difficult to treat conditions. I definitely don't agree with avoiding chemo for cancer etc. But in terms of long term, chronic, difficult to treat conditions, perhaps we will reach a better future state. Auto-immune diseases, type 2 diabetes, allergies, neurological problems, asthma, arthritis are possibly much more related to nutrition, and deficiencies, and infections than we realise.

My DC are 2 and 4, so what would be the recommended dosage assuming they were deficient?

Sofia I've seen your Dads name mentioned on the Terry Wahls site. Also read something about acetyl l carnitine that he spoke about, which is good for MS fatigue and pops up a lot on MS forums.

I can't remember who was asking about a form that children can take but you can give them the same ones you take. The Healthy Origins capsules I linked to upthread. Just pierce the cap and squirt it into their mouth or put in/on food. I go for the squirt in mouth as it's so quick and easy, 1 cap every 10 days (I have 10,000 IU caps).

twosmall The NHS recommendations are quite low. It's been a couple of years since I really looked into it but with all I read that a lot of people say 1000 IU is better.

Given my own health issues and the blindly obvious fact that Vit D has an effect I give my two (3yo's) 1000 IU a day, but I do it in a 10,000 cap every 10 days.

in germany 500 iu (12.5ug) are given daily.
which is also what I give dc in winter from when clocks turn to when they turn back.

and I prefer to give daily or I would forget

sofia I just googled your dad. Wow. What a knowledgeable man. I bet Christmas day is fascinating in your house! Would love to hear his take on so much stuff. My own parents think I'm a bore and tell me to belt up, when I gently suggest various supplements to help their ailments...

Wonder why the NHS is still not catching up here?

Thanks, sofia :)

I am (medically) dairy intolerant, oohdaddy, am supposed to avoid brassicas & soya, and have a violent allergy to sulphites. It makes all the usual dietary advice harder to follow. Cabbage is a brassica - I gather fermentation breaks down the goitrogens, but also releases sulphites Also am very poor, so posh supplements are out the window.

Off to google Sofia's dad now

So I've just been out to town on the hunt for some bit D3 spray.
Went into boots, nothing! Not even basic vit D tablets!

Luckily H&B is nearby so I popped in there.

I got some tablets in Boots a while ago but had to hunt around for them.

There's some on amazon www.amazon.co.uk/Now-Foods-Vitamin-Liposomal-Spray/dp/B0045MJNCU/ which also has K2 in.

I get a lot of my supplements, coconut oil etc off dolphinfitness.co.uk. found them by accident but they are a 1/3rd cheaper than many of the shops.

I know I should support the shops but supplements are flipping expensive.

garlic maybe fermented cabbage is the way to go! I ferment my own veggies usually (pregnant just now - sadly I'm living off awful food instead due to morning sickness). I ferment carrot/celery in salt water. Very cheap source of probiotics although I'm not sure about the vitamin K....

I get a lot of supplements so I'll check out that website thanks oohdaddy

speakerout do you have MS? There seems to be a strong mitochondrial dysfunction connection to MS which is why the L-carnitine is helpful. You should look into the mitochondrial disease websites ( UMDF and mitoaction ) for advice on the "mito-cocktail" which is a cocktail of high dose supplements that affect mitochondrial function. There is a fair amount of research (as well as my own personal anecdotal successes) to indicate that these supplements (such as L-carnitine and CoQ10 can be enormously helpful to any of the mitochondrial diseases). Of course don't forget your Vitamin D.

And my father is also pushing Omega 3's and Tryptophan too!

Re Christmas in my house...a few years ago my father gave everyone 23andMe subscriptions for Christmas (we're jewish atheists, by the way).

Our family gets most of our vitamins from the American website of Swanson Vitamins . They have good quality vitamins with reasonable prices in the USA. I assume the UK version sources from the same place. I mostly get their own name brand stuff.