to be getting hot and bothered about the Vit D push?

[stinkingbishop]

I am prepared to be corrected but, having been hassled yet again by the HV about giving the twins Vit D because of the oft cited 'rise in Rickets', and saying, again, that they had a good diet, including oily fish, and play outside, and again being made to feel like I am stubborn/neglectful, I am getting rather worked up.

As I understand it, one of the main reasons we all have different coloured skin is because we have evolved to be able to absorb the optimum amount of Vit D from the sun (or rather for the sun to catalyse our absorption). Those in very sunny climes have darker skin so they don't overload; us peely wallies are that way because we have such brief windows. Interestingly, it's why Inuits have darker skin than, say, Scandinavians, because they eat so much fish. Very clever, Nature.

Vit D deficiency is caused by a mismatch between your current environment and what you evolved for. So someone whose ancestors lived in the Congo and is now in Stornoway really needs to eat a lot of herring. It's compounded by inner city living eg not having a garden, being inside most of the time. And also strikes some Asian populations because of vegetarian diets and processed flours used in eg chapatis, and because of a culture of covering up, especially girls, and staying at home.

I can't find anything online which shows the incidence of Rickets amongst caucasian children in Britain who play outside regularly (15 mins a day) and have a good diet. Is there anything? Have there been cases? Where should I be looking?

If it genuinely is a problem, I will calm down. But at the moment I just wonder to what extent this national, indiscriminatory push is motivated by the Government's desire not to be seen as racially profiling (but we SHOULD profile for some conditions, because your ethnicity does correlate with various issues and potential issues) and/or because they're using some research funded by whoever it is manufactures the supplements (I have no evidence of this because again I can't find anything).

So, do I calm down, or do I fire something off to whoever is in charge of briefing Health Visitors? It just seems yet another thing to beat nervous, unsure new Mums with. For the vast majority of whom, if I'm correct, this is a complete non-issue.

Why would you prefer the idea of sunbeds to taking a supplement? Sunbed = risky, supplement = not risky - I don't get it!

I would not go NEAR a sunbed.
One of the long term risks is the heat damage to your skin as well as the melanoma.
The nice thing about swimming is that my skin stays cold but gets gently and evenly exposed to the sun.

could be an opportunity DaddyPig. I'll keep an eye out for you on Dragons Den

(oh another pun - a golden opportunity! haha.)

ahem.

I wonder could those iguana lights be used in workplaces, for the home etc, if not hazardous, or could be made safe re melanoma risks

I have no clue of the science here, just musing

i don't prefer it thumbwitch just musing on different solutions really.

Before any of this info about vitamin D hit the press, I was using sunbeds to control my depression. Cause & effect were blindingly obvious - and I needed the full-on version, not some wimpy 'therapeutic' model. Only stopped when I ran out of money, and had to triple my antidepressants within six months. You used to be able to get NHS vouchers for sunbeds, but sadly the melanoma connection stopped that before I went broke.

Actually there are people who use iguana lamps for vitamin D! I mused this last year too, although I assure you I'm not a reptile :)

Google for more..... Will try to find the link!

I really can't see what the OP is getting her knickers into a twist about. I'm a Kiwi and have to say that each winter I feel like throwing myself under a bus. Supplementing with Vit D has really improved my mood, if nothing else. Not one HV told me to supplement my kids, and I bloody wish they had. You have no way of knowing whether your children are Vit D deficient without testing them - you can't necessarily tell by looking at them. I read a horrifying statistic which postulated that the vast majority of the population in Scotland was Vit D deficient. My kids now have a gummy bear type multivit with Vit D included and I supplement in the winter too. My mum had osteoporosis and I just can't see how Vit D supplementing is a bad idea. Just because a HV tells you something brainless (like supplementing with formula, just as I was), doesn't mean that everything they say is wrong.

Anyone else confused?

Anyone else think that we are all different?
With different health needs? And different lifestyles? And different skin types? etc etc.

Anyone else think that the only way to find out is to have an individual health check. And levels of goodness knows what, checked?

Yes we are all different but supplementing statistically more at risk groups is a more cost-effective way of tackling the issue. Possibly more effective also than screening, follow up and then supplementation - given high dropout/ non-attendance rates at each stage.

If it helps, after doing a lot of reading, I supplememt following the recommendations of a US guy called Paul Jaminet who wrote an amazing book called the "perfect health diet"

Would you believe he does not recommend a multivitamin as it gives, in his (well researched view) toxic levels of some vitamins/minerals like folic acid and not enough others (eg vitamin D, K and magnesium)

I guess I see the NHS as so cash strapped that I have to take these things into my own hands. I also feel it is very slow to react.

All you experts - am I right in thinking my body will make all the K it needs if I have plenty of gut flora? Or have I got to start fermenting cabbage for sauerkraut

oohdaddypig not sure I'd trust someone who thought too much folic acid was toxic. It's a water soluble vitamin, so highly highly unlikely. Plus, I would be very surprised if you could get the max dose in a multi-vit anyway, I have it prescribed.

You would think so? I agreed with you too, till I read the studies. He also reckons there are way better ways to increase levels of folate (which is what the folic acid is trying to do). He doesn't disagree folate is essential...

Have a look at his stuff - it's fascinating...

He sounds quite plausible but I'm not that taken with his advice that the first-line treatment for 'most diseases' is his proprietary diet.

Just to say that I'm white British and was extremely vit D deficient (my level was 11) when I eventually went to the doctor. I was exhausted and couldn't function. I was so tired I couldn't hold my arms up long enough to wash my hair. It was awful. Everyone seemed to think I was just being lazy when I spent the entire weekend sleeping, but I just didn't feel any better however long I slept for.

I thought I was getting sun exposure as my classroom had big windows, but apparently the rays don't penetrate the glass. I eat fish but apparently dietary sources aren't enough. In the winter I wasn't actually getting any exposure to sunlight at all (walking to work in the dark/walking home in the dark) and in the summer I usually had sleeves (I get cold easily!) and spf15 in my makeup.The doctor gave me super strength vit D supplements, told me to take them forever and go on holiday :)

It's pretty hard to od on Vitamin D and it's really cheap to supplement. Here in the USA I can get a year's supply for $12. Some of the reason that they are just now coming out with all this information and big push is that they just didn't know all of this before. It's really only in the last 5-10 years that they are beginning to discover all the things that Vitamin D does. And they are not even close to knowing how it all works exactly, but they do know that it's important and essential in hundreds of metabolic pathways, some percentage of which are essential to your health. The problem with the vitamin naysayers is that they imagine that we all live in a perfect world where we get all the nutrients our body needs from our perfect diet and our perfect lifestyle. I certainly don't live in that perfect world, and don't know anyone else who does either....
I do have to add that I am getting my advice and information from my father, who is an expert whose advice is unadulterated by money and power AND who I have to believe has my family's best interests at heart. So the choices and decisions might be a bit easier for me.

This thread is fascinating. Have been researching getting a supplement that can be taken when ttc and / or pregnant, but the recommended levels vary massively! Nhs seems to say that 10 micrograms or 400 iu is fine per day but the vitamin d council says 4000 -6000iu per day, which is a heck of a variation...?
Does anyone have any helpful experience about this?

Does anyone have any helpful experience about this?

Nope, but I bet Sofia's dad does :)

Hi. Actually my father does the science to say that we need Vitamin D and that we need to keep our levels up. When it comes to specific dosages and recommended blood levels, he refers everyone (including me) to the Vitamin D council. The general consensus is that the current recommendations of 400-600iu are 10 times too low.

Having said that. I find that in the winter in Los Angeles, with fairly white skin and a lot of outdoor time without suntan lotion, I need to supplement with about 2000iu to maintain the recommended levels of 40-60 (i'm not quite sure of the units offhand). In the summer, I don't need to supplement. At one point recently I started taking 5000iu a day (because my dad was nagging me to) and it brought my levels up to 98 which is too high. So, in the UK in the winter, I am guessing that most people will need to take 5000iu a day. If you can persuade your gp to order the test, you should really get your levels tested. But please do consider getting your levels checked and supplementing if you are ttc/pregnant as vitamin d deficiency in the pregnant mother is almost certainly a significant cause of autism.

Garlic...I will ask my father about vitamin k and perhaps save you from your sauerkraut diet...I know he has written several papers on Vitamin K and considers it one of the essential vitamins, but I think it may be easier to get in a normal diet than vitamin d.

deeply I don't know if this helps but my gynea recommended 2,000 IU of D3 during my current pregnancy to help prevent autism (he must have read Sofia's dad's research!). I was not tested beforehand so this must be some kind of standard or average recommendation?

Fascinating sofia I would love to meet your dad!

garlic if you can tolerate dairy, kefir is a more palatable choice than the kraut... I do take a K supplement though - but even that is baffling. There is a K2 supplement by solgar which seems good....

Paul Jaminet says vit D is too important to guess. And also that you can overdose. and that vit D taken without vit K and too much calcium can be harmful. The vit D council has details of companies that test. A sympathetic GP will too.

I take 3,000 daily from September to march/April depending on weather. Nothing in summer but I am often outdoors in the sun and don't burn easily so rarely need sunscreen in the UK.

The other biggie to consider if you are feeling crap is magnesium. It bulks up multivits so don't rely on your multivit for it. I take magnesium twice a day. Again, the dose I take is on perfecthealthdiet.com

I promise I don't work for this website... I'm just evangelical about is, as it has transformed my health!

booboo my father will be delighted to hear that doctors are starting to give out recommendations of vitamin d for pregnant women. His paper only came out a few months ago, so this must be a doctor who is already keeping up with current research on Vitamin D. Are you in the UK?

oohdaddy having a famous scientist father who works on nutrition and the causes of cancer has its pros and cons. I was always the kid who couldn't eat the normal things that other kids ate because my father had discovered that they might cause cancer...not to mention the long underwear instead of pajamas because of the flame retardants (you don't have them in kids' pj's the uk, so don't panic).... But now as an adult with a child with mitochondrial disease, it has been invaluable having a father who can advise on nutritional supplements and open doors to the latest research and the best doctors and scientists in the world!

You could almost call the 1980's to 2010 the dark ages.

When I was a kid, the connection between the sun and my improved eczema was casually accepted, it went from pretty awful to just awful over the summer. But then the whole obsessiveness over sunscreen started and my skin go progressively worse. I have lived with eczema all my life - weeping sores on my face, neck - all over my legs, wrists, feet, cracked hands, sleepless nights from unbearable itching. When I lived in Scotland it was diabolical and when I lived in Australia it was manageable. It's only now that I see why.

I sit here this morning typing this post and it has all gone, I looked for a cure for 43 years and it was something as simple as Vitamin D, and I hope that someone else reading this finds the same relief, it's amazing.

Very interesting thread. Can someone link to suitable vitD supplements for young children?

I'm going to get tested