to think that 'modesty shorts' are going to lead to trouble

[RainbowsStars]

A hypothetical young woman isn't wearing any under a shortish skirt. She goes out and is sexually assaulted. The defense know this. She is then considered to have 'asked for it' just as women used to be (I hope it is used to be) because she chose to be 'provocative' by not wearing the modesty shorts that have become a standard item for females wearing dresses and skirts.

I have a son so I was quite surprised when I heard of modesty shorts. apart from in school I can't see much of a reason for girls to wear them really.

Thank you Phaedra- my point exactly.

Phaedra No, it's not, actually.

If that's you're only association with the world, that's your problem! (Where'd you think the idea of 'flash cards' comes from, or the expression 'flash in the pan'?)

And actually, I think it's clear from my previous post that I don't think it's a 'sexually provocative' thing in little girls at all, so I think you're being deliberately argumentative.

*your, stupid autocorrect

I was trying to think of a way to say what Phaedra said as well. "Flashing" when it comes to people has connotations of something done deliberately to attract attention, and is often related to nudity / sexually provocative actions.

Yes, it can be.

Clearly not when it's used to describe a child's cartwheel. Or someone falling in a puddle and 'flashing' their knickers. Or when you take off a jumper and the shirt underneath comes with it, and you 'flash' your bra. Nothing provocative about any of those scenarios: it just means a brief glimpse of something you don't usually show.

Different contexts, different connotations. Pretty obvious, I would've thought.

My niece had them, but poor thing started her periods aged 9. Was in year 4 in school. It made her feel better to wear them under her summer dress.

I felt very sad when a friend said she made her girls wear shorts under skirts in case boys got the wrong idea and that girls needed to be careful. They are both at primary school. I would hate for my nine year old to somehow think it was wrong to do cartwheels or anything because of what their classmates think.

I think, Koala, that you might be wrong here. Or, enough people will think of the word flashing when used in the context of showing underwear as denoting mild titilation that it's probably best avoided when talking about little girls' knickers.

I used to wear black hot pants under v.short a-line skirts because I liked the look of the short skirt, but didn't want to show everyone my pants. This was the late 90s. It's hardly a new thing.

Strange no-one is saying that girls mustn't be allowed to wear these if they want.

The problem is the process that has led to them wanting to wear them. No-one seriously wears a totally unnecessary, hot garment because it makes them feel good. It's almost inevitably a process of indoctrination - the old stuff about "nice" girls not risking showing their knickers, how dreadful would it be if the boys could see your knickers. People need to inculcate in girls that, whilst generally we cover up our underwear, there is nothing dreadful about people getting the occasional glimpse, because it's no worse than wearing a swimsuit or bikini.

Well sure but strange was talking about people (or a person as it turned out) actively trying to stop a girl from wearing shorts under a dress when she wanted to do so.

I think the poster concerned was a) worried that the shorts in question were lime green and would therefore be not particularly inconspicuous up under a red dress and b) was seriously pissed off with the idea that her daughter has been caught up in the whole "modesty" thing.

If I had a daughter who wanted to wear very short skirts, I'd encourage her to wear shorts underneath.

Of course it is never, ever a girl or woman's responsibility if a man molests her (and as one poster upthread said, she should be able to walk naked down the street without fear of molestation.) But it is her responsibility and choice to recognise that dressing in a way that reveals your underwear will lead to some people noticing you sexually before they notice anything else about you.

Short skirts invite the interested eye to stare in the hope of a glimpse of the knickers or more. There is no point in getting angry or judgemental about this. It's a simple fact. For every vile person who oversteps the mark and attacks a woman (and tbh I don't think they take clothing into account much by that stage) there are thousands of 'ordinary' people who will letch without action.

If I had girls, I'd want to ensure that they weren't drawing attention to their sexuality unless they explicitly chose to do so. For them to be fully in charge of who they turn on, where and when, they are better off dressing in a way which doesn't draw sexual attention. If long shorts don't attract unwanted attention and short skirts that show the knickers do, it seems an empowering not a disempowering decision to wear them.

All true, kind of depends on the age.

I also wore some little shorts when I was younger under a very very short dress that I had taken a liking to

It's up to the individual to decide what their personal comfort levels are in terms of exposure and they vary over the course of your life. If you're female. If you're male of course there isn't much change really is there. Anyway. We have standards as to what must be covered up on the sexes, and what the minimum is with. For little girls that is knickers. For there to be a drive away from little girls wearing knickers and towards something more covering, for the sake of "modesty", is disturbing. It's unrelated to fashion really, I think that applies more for the older ones. A young child couldn't give a monkeys as long as their clothes are warm enough /cool enough and give them the freedom that they require. To change what is considered "acceptable" in terms of what little kids (girls) have around their arses is bizarre and worrying. Because why does it need changing, it doesn't and it shouldn't. Let alone to cover up for reasons of "modesty".

chinamoon men will leer at and sexually assault women and girls irrespective of what they are wearing, I'm afraid to have to tell you.

If not wearing a short shirt was a sure-fire protection from sexual assault, I think that women and girls the world over would be going with it, don't you.

Sadly, I think these shorts might actually make a rape case be less successful, because studies show that the more restrictive a victim's clothing, the less likely the police, judge and jury are to believe that she was raped. There's been cases in the last few years where the rapists has got off because the judge, etc., didn't believe women could be raped if they were wearing Spanx, skinny jeans, and so on. In other words, if the rape seems 'difficult', then the victim must have helped remove her clothing, or just laid there whilst he removed them, and that somehow means it was consensual. Obviously, all rapists give up the second a woman says no, or he can't gain immediate, easy access to her genitals I bet having shorts over pants and under a skirt would count as being 'difficult to access'.

In other words, females are damned if they do, damned if they don't. You wear something remotely sexy/pretty/skimpy/girly and you're asking for it, and if you wear something unsexy and/or difficult to remove, then you must have wanted sex, and helped the man, etc., etc. If you appear available, it's your fault, if you appear unavailable, it's your fault.

All of this is irrelvant to the fact that rape is 100% caused by rapists, 100% of the time, of course. And that some MEN need to change their opinions, attitudes, beliefs and behaviour, not women.

And chinamoon, rape is about power and control, not sexual attraction. Whether or not a woman appears attractive does not enter into the rape equation. Otherwise, how come rape is still endemic in Afghanistan, where they have the most extreme body covering of women in the world? Or that women in her 90s was raped the other week? How come rape of female patients is a big issue in psychiatric wards (often the staff, so can't be blamed on MH)? How come women in comas get raped? And so much more.

I've never heard of anyone over the age of about 14 wearing shorts under a skirt or dress . Unless they were Spanx, but I don't think they're for modesty!

I've never heard if anyone wearing modesty shirts 'in real life'. My dd wears them & I get my students to wear them or a leotard underneath skirt based costumes when they are dancing to avoid showing the audience their knickers but not as part of real life clothes!

I agree with chinamoon. Nobody's saying that assault is the fault of anybody but the person committing it nor that rape is about sex rather than power. Some clothing though just is more provocative than other clothing and there are those of a voyeuristic inclination who would have no more tendency to rape or assault a woman than any other man.

You can't stop people from looking but you can, if you want to, make less likely the possibility that there is anything to see.

But I'm still puzzled by the concept that seeing someone's pants is such a no-no. Unless they's a thong, how does it differ from wearing a bikini or tankini? And I suspect that if you're a sad voyeur who gets turned on by it, you will be equally turned on by the glimpse of shorts.

I don't care if anyone wears shorts under their skirts or not (though I know some who do because it stops their thighs rubbing together).

What I hate, hate, HATE is any item of clothing at all being called "modest" as it implies other clothes are "immodest".

Aren't they a great way to encourage thrush?

koala I was agreeing with Hakluyt who earlier made the very valid point that "flashing their knickers" is an unfortunate choice of phrase in the context of children turning cartwheels.

Can-Can dancers flash their knickers.

Tbh it wouldn't occur to me to even make the connection in the context of children turning cartwheels. You might want to address your own use of language.

Can can knickers are quite large bloomer ish affairs though

Ordinary knickers often don't cover the nether regions enough when dancing certain moves.