To wonder why people hate immigration/immigrants so much?

[PeachyParisian]

I don't mean to the UK specifically, but within Europe, worldwide..

Does it boil down to a sense of entitlement? i.e. I was born here so i deserve to reap the benefits of my ancestors hard work.
Also I suppose economic migration is completely different to fleeing to claim asylum although I see no differentiation made in the UK media.
Its always about "benefits tourism"/"generous benefits given to asylum seekers".
I'm an expat, DH is non-EU and we are planning on moving to the UK this year and I'm tired of all the raised questioning eyebrows incredulously asking me if he really is forrin.

I find it hard to get my head around the idea that I am worth more, deserve more etc just because I was lucky enough to be born a British citizen.

My bringing up Somalians was only in response to the claim that British people are bigger % users of benefits and housing than immigrants.

Aga that is not a claim, it is a fact that British people use more than 90% of social housing and immigrants use less than 10%.

I get that if you live next door to a large Somalian family with 8 kids then the statistics would be scant comfort - a lot of the people who complain about immigrants do live next door to them and meet them every day, so they feel swamped and it feels to them like the UK is absolutely crawling everywhere with immigrants and they just can't escape them and they feel sad about that. Perceptions are important too, but the facts are clear.

Did anyone else enjoy the irony in this sentence?

Also, UKIP and BNP are not one and the same. Not a nice mistake to make, but I guess along with other so-called "liberals", you like to stifle debate by labelling things.

Millie, we get it. Britain has an unbesmirched record of global achievement and definitely never partook in any state-sponsored escapades abroad that have had lasting effects decades and even centuries down the line on those foreigners you absolutely don't have a problem with as long as they don't come anywhere near your shores.

Honestly, as an immigrant, I can see that Britain has an impressive record of achievement, particularly at the individual and innovative level, as well as having a shameful record in its colonialist and imperialist past - and as someone who shares part of that past, I do not see the benefit in downplaying the latter, and its continuing echoes.

Incidentally, it's worth noting that neither Britain, nor the USA nor the USSR defeated fascism. If that had been their goal it's a great pity that no one pointed out that they'd missed a bit.

Jassy I enjoyed your flight of fancy. Very eloquent, but not me at all.

I'm not sure about other's people's views. My grandparents were both immigrants to their respective countries (on both sides) and my parents were immigrants to a third country. I'm now an immigrant to a 4th country. So...guess what, I don't resent immigrants :)

I do resent anyone, from any race, who moves to a country and does not make an effort to assimilate with that country. Meaning, immigrants should respect the laws and social norms of their new country, dress appropriately, work hard and appreciate the opportunity you have to make a life there etc, bring up children to respect the new culture and be attached to it.

I would resent anyone who teaches hatred or disrespect towards their adoptive country, doesn't learn the language, cheats the benefits system, doesn't pay taxes. Sadly certain immigrant populations in the UK have quite a reputation for those things.

Assimilation would mean losing the culture you come from and replacingit with the culture of your new country. I don't agree with that. I'm all for integration, which to me means bringing your heritage and mixing it with the new country's heritage, enriching both as you do.

I do think it's a bit hypocritical that the Swedes are getting uppity about immigration when it was them and their fellow vikings that started it all in the first place.

WidowWadman I think it's actually rather difficult to lose a culture. My family has so many quirks, which are "family traditions" but actually relics from the various places and cultures we have known.

The integration theory sounds good, but in my opinion it doesn't really happen that way. In my family, each generation "assimilated" but in reality integrated. If we had tried to just integrate, I don't think we would have achieved integration as we would be a bit too different.

The things my grandparents/parents/I don't do, which fellow immigrant friends of our family do do, are things like speaking native language at home as first language, having native language TV in the background at all times :), sending children with packed lunch of native foods etc. I don't think those things help the family integrate at all, as they are visible signs of not belonging to the current country. Children really pick up on those things.

Like I said, I'm pro-immigration, I think it's a wonderful thing all around. I guess we all have to find our own path.

mumminio I think the things that people do at home, with TV, language etc all go once that generation have grown up. It's unikely that a young person brought up in a UK school grows watches foreign language TV later on in adulthood.

I think the only real problem with immigration/migration is uprooting famlies, it does mean that for a generation children are a bit rootless with little or no extended family around (depends of course) and not quite knowing where their home country is.

I do think the whole Somalians next door issue that someone mentioned upthread is sad and unnecessary but I am really opposed to the accumulation of one group in one area. People need to disperse a little to keep integration healthy. What's happened in some of the Northern cities is horrendous with massive division between one area and another. That doesn't seem very progressive to me.

People do also need to remember that immigrants do put back into society. It might not be immediate but I don't think any of them take the generosity and openness of the UK for granted.

mumminio - you're against raising children bilingually because you believe it hinders their integration? Really?

My children's main language is English, unsurprisingly as I work full time, so they spend a lot of time in English speaking childcare, if I didn't insist on exclusively speaking my native language to them, they wouldn't have a chance to learn it - and lose connect with their maternal family.

I sing the songs to them my mother sang to me, and read the stories to them my parents read to me. It would be unfair not to. I don't think we're not integrated though at all.

I love the variety of foods from all over the world available in supermarkets - available because they cater for immigrants from all over the world, and thereby enrich everyone's choice. And over time those "foreign" choices become local. Surely that's a good thing?

mumminio - you're against raising children bilingually because you believe it hinders their integration? Really?

My children's main language is English, unsurprisingly as I work full time, so they spend a lot of time in English speaking childcare, if I didn't insist on exclusively speaking my native language to them, they wouldn't have a chance to learn it - and lose connect with their maternal family.

I sing the songs to them my mother sang to me, and read the stories to them my parents read to me. It would be unfair not to. I don't think we're not integrated though at all.

I love the variety of foods from all over the world available in supermarkets - available because they cater for immigrants from all over the world, and thereby enrich everyone's choice. And over time those "foreign" choices become local. Surely that's a good thing?

WidowWadman erm, no...I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there.

I don't think it's helpful for an immigrant family in England, for example, to use a non-English language as a primary language at home. Of course it's beneficial to raise children to be polyglots...isn't that fairly well proven now? Ditto with encouraging musical talents...it's just good for their developing brains, as well as opening doors to global opportunities later down the line.

To your point, my children speak three languages fairly fluently, and we sing and read in 5 languages (not showing off, it was hard work!). English remains the language that I prioritise at home though, to make sure that they will not be at a disadvantage at school or with making new friends. I hope they will be widely read in each language, but especially in English, as there are so many references to literature from the Bible, Shakespeare etc which would be slightly lost on people who hadn't read those books.

We also cook various cuisines at home, but I make sure that school lunches are not anything which would identify our children as non-English. Nobody wants to be different until they are past adolescence, in my opinion, it's just a way of helping children to integrate in my opinion. Then they can cook their own meals ;)

I really am not meaning to be inflammatory. The thread asked for opinions; these are mine. Sorry if you don't agree, but please don't project!

Basically, it just comes down to tribalism. Our puny brains have an inherent distrust of "other" that isn't easy to overcome.

Maybe it's just my own experience, but I'd find it impossible to reach my children my language if I didn't use it exclusively with them, English is dominant as it is.

As I don't know what foreign foods you refer to, I can't comment, but I can't think of a single item that would mark one as "non-English".

Didn't mean to flame you though

I think it's madness not to nurture native languages at home - children spend so much time immersed in English that it really should be a non-issue (though my children don't speak Dutch - my DH doesn't speak it and it isn't the most useful of languages). By all means encourage reading widely in English alongside different languages, but there's nothing wrong with speaking the native tongue at home or watching native language television.

The point about lunch boxes is just plain weird. My children's lunch boxes immediately identify them as non-English because my DH is American and so they have foodstuffs which their friends know can only be bought on the local US air base. It's just not a problem. The only issue I can see with non-English lunch boxes is food envy, to be honest. If your children want to conform and have only 'English' (whatever that is) food in their lunch boxes then fine, but I don't see the sense in hiding your differences. We will never get rid of the British tendency towards xenophobia if all non-native born people hide their differences.

As long as everyone speaks English fluently - and I do think this is essential - and respects English law, where's the problem?

Millie, I didn't raise the point. I was explaining why I don't feel particularly proud/ patriotic. Please direct me to where I said they were one and the same? I don't think their ideological similarities can be denied though. Rather hypocritical of you considering you were very quick to label me liberal and militant and is don't recall making any such grouping of people here.

I get the point about assimilating, it's important for everyone to feel like they have an identifiable culture. Part of what makes British culture what it is, is the sheer amount of other cultural practices mixed in. Have you considered how maybe your culture acts as sort of a safety blanket when moving to the UK? Especially if you are fleeing conflict. Moving abroad can be a huge shock to the system and settling in isn't always that easy.
Obviously people who choose to make their life in Britain and make zero effort for 20+ years is taking the biscuit.

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."

Why does it matter where you're from? As long as you're respecting the laws of a country, then fine. The traditions, cultures and histories of each country are fascinating, but I can't say I'd call myself a patriot especially now thanks to Farage and the Tories, amongst others.

When I lived in Spain, I had friends round for tea, potato scones, crumpets and other typically 'British' food, and they loved it. One had never tried tea with milk before, either. Although I did eat a lot of Spanish food, and didn't go out of my way to seek out brands from home, I did buy a few home comforts, and always made sure to bring a supply back after visiting home. I wouldn't make a point of only eating Spanish produce to better integrate myself.

Widow The problem is when people come to the UK and do not learn the language

namechanger I agree absolutely - I wouldn't dream of expecting people here to speak Dutch (aside from the fact that I've been bilingual for the past 35 years). However, if you are going to require immigrants to learn the language, then you have to facilitate that by making languages courses easy to access - nearby, comprehensive and affordable/free for vulnerable groups. The benefits would be enormous for all the parties involved:

1. immigrants with professional skills would be able to find work much more easily and so be able to pay their way (I would add to this that we need to do something about the way we don't allow refugees to work when they can do so and want to do so - that is bonkers!)
2. the barrier of 'other' would be greatly reduced
3. it would be far easier for vulnerable people from other countries who were being controlled/abused by their partners and families to make an escape.

It's a complete win/win. However, it will take a shift in thinking and a considerable amount of financial investment.

mumminio, 'I make sure that school lunches are not anything which would identify our children as non-English.'

What in your book is 'non-English'? Or, to turn it the other way up, what do you think should be in an 'English lunchbox'?

If I, as a white Brit, were to take an Iranian pilau or a Greek spinach pie to work for lunch, would that confuse people? Would they start to think I might be 'non-English' and worry about it?

What a bizarre post.

OnlyLovers - I have a Pot Noodle, but it's spicy curry flavour... I'll be the enigma of the canteen.

The idea that English ( or I assume the native language of the country you live in) should be spoken at hone regardless of the parent's native language is very wrong in my opinion. The advice in Sweden used to be that children should learn Swedish and parents should speak Swedish to them even if Swedish was not the parent's native language, there is a dialect called Rinkeby (it's a suburb with a predominantly immigrant population) Swedish which is often spoken by the children and grandchildren of immigrants as well as new immigrants. It isn't specifically based on one accent or language but Rinkeby Swedish mixes different languages and accents with Swedish.

There is lots of prejudice against people who speak Rinkeby Swedish. I wonder if a home language and a school/wider community language had always been encouraged if this dialect wouldn't have come into existence.

I speak good enough Swedish to study in Sweden and to function in society but I'm sure I still make pronunciation and grammatical mistakes, I wouldn't choose to speak to my children in a language that wasn't my strongest language as I wouldn't want them to learn my inevitable mistakes.

As for lunch boxes I'll send my child with sandwiches ( a very odd packed lunch choice in Sweden ) as I think sandwiches are a perfectly good lunch option.

I agree with pointy's point that there should be more opportunities to learn English, I think it's a good opportunity to teach immigrants about British traditions and social norms. One of the first things we were taught in our Swedish lessons was that Swedish people, the same as English people don't like their personal space to be invaded, other things we were taught were that it is illegal to smack your children, we were told how the health care/schools/democracy/benefits work. These are all really important things for new immigrants to know but I imagine lots of immigrants in the UK don't have help to understand the system and therefore find it harder to integrate.

Oooh, spanakopita...

Well said, OnlyLovers

I sometimes have leftover homemade quiche, which I suppose makes people think I'm French. Only oddly enough most of them aren't that dim.

I get what mumminio is saying about integration.

I was born in a multicultural family and remember just longing to be like everyone else. I was the one with the weird food, the unusual routine and the isolation due to parents only mixing with their kind.

Yes I'm bilingual but I've never actually used the language much, it's handy to speak to relatives that don't have the language but i feel over time my English language skills have become slightly hindered. It has become more evident as I've got older.

It really isn't the end of the world if people don't speak millions of languages. A good grasp of several on a basic level is helpful, and if you move abroad you will learn it anyway as an adult.

What's more important to me is that my children don't stand out unnecessarily, it's not what they want so why impose it on them?

I'm a great cook though and have always passed down my cooking skills, the stories and history (wouldn't want not to).