To wonder why people hate immigration/immigrants so much?

[PeachyParisian]

I don't mean to the UK specifically, but within Europe, worldwide..

Does it boil down to a sense of entitlement? i.e. I was born here so i deserve to reap the benefits of my ancestors hard work.
Also I suppose economic migration is completely different to fleeing to claim asylum although I see no differentiation made in the UK media.
Its always about "benefits tourism"/"generous benefits given to asylum seekers".
I'm an expat, DH is non-EU and we are planning on moving to the UK this year and I'm tired of all the raised questioning eyebrows incredulously asking me if he really is forrin.

I find it hard to get my head around the idea that I am worth more, deserve more etc just because I was lucky enough to be born a British citizen.

Alemci, I don't think anyone alive today in the UK can go back to their hometown and not be astounded by the changes, and in most cases that has sweet. f. a to do with immigrants.

Pointythings, i'm really leaning towards thinking a contributions based system is fairer but then what about somebody who has never been able to make a contribution but desperately needs the support of the state? France has a more or less contributions based system and there seem to so many more homeless people here and I know this is not the reality but benefits are supposed to be a short term solution (not a lifestyle ) to help people get back on their feet. I don't know if i prefer a system as flawed as it is now, or one thats equal but in its own way discriminatory

What on earth do you mean, there is no natural population increase? aga Will nobody have children ever again?

the point is that the pensioner has to WAIT longer for his operation as there are more people using the NHS and more calls on its limited resources. So I suspect, in those circumstances, he would care very much.

as the quoted study points out, immigrants actually pay more tax. By all means, let's invest that in NHS infrastructure. that way, the pensioner can have both his pension (thanks immigrants!) and not wait longer.

Both Aga and Tallandgraceful are flat out wrong about their assertions about fertility and birth rates among British-born women, unless they have discovered an alternative Office for National Statistics.

Aero, I'm confused. What are you finding sad?

Millie ahh so charity begins at home? because there are poor people in the UK I shouldn't be bothered about the state of the rest of the world? Im not suggesting the worlds population move to the UK, they wouldn't all fit but that its not fair to exclude somebody based on where they are born. Whether it's then 'fair' on the people already here is another issue. The UK is not the only country with resources either. Immigration goes both ways, plenty of people leave the UK for a better life too.

I can't agree that a proud history stretching back hundreds of years of the UK welcoming immigrants is "not relevant" to your wild assertion that people "hate" immigrants. Its the "welcoming" that i take issue with. Who are we to say that anyone does or doesnt have the right to come here? Why is our claim on this island stronger than anyone else's? Our ancestors all made their way here at some point themselves.

" and you do know the highest users of social houseing and benefits in the UK are the UK nationals?"

No that is not true. The highest are Somalians (80% living in social housing), followed by Afghans, Bangladeshis and Jamaicans.

Moreover, more than 50% of all foreign residents of social housing in the UK are in London, where housing is scarcest and most ridiculously fucking expensive on the open market.

Fully 32% of social housing residents are Muslims, double the number that are Christian (16%).

Source: www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/4_social_housing_allocation_and_immigrant_communities.pdf

It's bloody ridiculous to claim immigration is all sunshine and lollipops, it isn't, it has good and bad sides, not all immigrant groups are equal, and uncontrollable immigration like we have from eastern Europe was something that while not necessarily causing issues with benefits, does cause pressures on housing (it is believed that up to 20% of the residents of places like Slough are living in illegal shed with bed slums constructed without planning permission) and wages (huge downward pressure on wages in certain trades). If you are working as a builder and can't get work but see eastern European immigrants getting work, then of course you are going to be unhappy,

"Both Aga and Tallandgraceful are flat out wrong about their assertions about fertility and birth rates among British-born women, unless they have discovered an alternative Office for National Statistics."

The total fertility rate is 1.94, inclusive of foreign-born mothers. For British-born mothers it is only around 1.65.

The replacement rate required is around 2.1

To be patriotic is a bad thing on here

No one is saying that there aren't issues with immigration. But what people are saying is that the benefits often outweigh the challenges, the problems are often with policy response rather than immigration per de, and that making shit up to help bash immigrants and immigration is not only rather sad, it masks a true examination of the underlying problems in this country.

I'm assuming you're aware that nearly half of all Muslims in Britain were born here, that over a third of the population of London is foreign born so you need to factor that into meaningful comparisons about London, and that not all British-born people are Christian (or in fact identify with any religion) so Christianity is not a reliable indicator of Britishness.

aga are you saying 80% of all social housing is inhabited by somalians??
or 80% of somalians in the UK are in social housing?
" and you do know the highest users of social houseing and benefits in the UK are the UK nationals?" this actually means that overall, the majority of people living in SH are UK nationals, which is the case!

Aeroflot, It would be nice to feel patriotic but I genuinely don't feel I have anything to be proud of. It would sort of feel like taking credit for somebody else's hard work. Most of the UK's accomplishments have been at the detriment to other nations.

That's sad you feel that way peachy, but dies not mean others should not. This country has many good things about it, I am not aware of it's past history but I am sure other countries also gave undesirable parts of their history. I am just talking about the present.

reading [[http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/fertility-analysis/childbearing-of-uk-and-non-uk-born-women-living-in-the-uk/2011-census-data/index.html]]

Equally interesting on the likely reasons for difference in TFR:

There are two reasons for this: firstly fertility levels are on average higher among foreign-born women and secondly the foreign-born and UK-born female populations of reproductive age have different age structures (for example a higher proportion of foreign-born women are aged from 25 to 34, the ages where fertility is highest).

The fact does remain that births continue to outnumber deaths by a significant number in this country. The TFR discrepancy with notional replacement rate is not swift to make itself seen.

Immigration does not always enrich peoples lives.

I can imagine how you might feel if all the other people on your street had moved out and you were now a lone white face among a tight-knit Muslim community (for example) who speak a different language, dress differently and observe different customs and with whom you lack any shared history.

Yes, I can see that. Can't you?

Sorry, link fail. This is instructive reading: www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/fertility-analysis/childbearing-of-uk-and-non-uk-born-women-living-in-the-uk/2011-census-data/index.html

My village has changed so much over the last few years. I don't recognise the place I was brought up at all.
It's not one nationality but quite a few and they all stay in their own little groups. We no longer have that community feel about the place.

It's all well and good saying immigration is good for the country and if you're against it you racist. But what about the communities that have rapidly changed?

We haven't been given any extra resources where I live so sending your dc is a no go because of the volume of people applying.
Doctors appointments are like rocking horse poop.

Open door policies on immigration is daft.

Toffee, I'd want to understand the reason behind the sudden change on local demographic. And yeah, I'd probably feel lonely about it. But how widespread is that picture? And what are the causes of such sudden local demographic change?

I wasn't suggesting that Christianity is a reliable indicator of Britishness (although 'nearly half' of Muslims being born here is to me a pretty shocking statistic, since it implies that the majority weren't and gained admission to the UK under what might therefore appear to be lax immigration controls (or as a result of practices like cousin marriage))

The white British people who are actually affected about social housing allocation are not middle class Guardian readers, they are working class/unemployed people. A proportion of whom join the EDL, BNP, etc.

A lot of them don't like Muslims because of terrorism/sharia law/grooming gangs/insert reason here. And then they see a large proportion of social housing allocations going to Muslims and this cements their hatred.

I'm not in any way justifying this, just explaining the inevitable. A lot of people of these groups dislike Eastern Europeans too, for the reasons I explained (competition for jobs and housing), but the conflict is much less (I believe the number of Muslims and Eastern Europeans is pretty similar).

Clearly we have a lot of immigrants in the UK, and that's not about to change, the practice of cousin marriage means that we have more Mirpuris in the UK then there are in Mirpur, for example, but it's really insulting and patronising when people claim it's all wonderful and joyous, or that it's racist for people to resent any kind of change (e.g., in the last 10 years the majority of the white British population left the borough of Barking - that's a huge change and it means all kinds of traditions and history being lost, yes there are new groups and new traditions and whatever else, but it's unreasonable to demand that everyone be happy about this).

We do have some need for immigrants; personally my view is that the 2000s Eastern European migration was unasked for by people in Britain and should not have happened and has NOT improved the country (we do not have higher wages, better living standards, better pensions as a result, and no claims about how these migrants are net contributors to the economy will change that).

"aga are you saying 80% of all social housing is inhabited by somalians??
or 80% of somalians in the UK are in social housing? "

80% of Somalians in the UK live in social housing.

" and you do know the highest users of social houseing and benefits in the UK are the UK nationals?" "this actually means that overall, the majority of people living in SH are UK nationals, which is the case!"

No, it means that the % by each ethnic background using social housing/benefits is highest by UK nationals. This isn't true.

There are certain statistics that you can make out of this where a higher % of UK nationals use some things than the whole set of non-UK nationals, but it doesn't take into account things like the fact that you can easily get a private let in say Grimsby for £60/week or whatever, so the fact that the nearly everyone in social housing in Grimsby is white British is much less important than the allocations in London, where private lets cost £TooFuckingMuch.

You can definitely do stats to make immigrants look bad or look good. And statistically it's true that certain immigrant groups, I don't know say Germans or Americans, or even Indians, look very good. But that doesn't mean that we as British residents are required to WANT immigrants.

We have a small island largely preserved in aspic with NIMBYism preventing any kind of infrastructure development - we fundamentally cannot cope with the kind of 'hey man, we are all humans, everyone should have a right to move freely' logic you espouse.

So if British people are generally opposed to immigration, and I believe that surveys show that they are, this is a view that should be strongly heeded by the politicians.

fought to make this country great.

No, they slaughtered us to make money on the arms sales, our forefathers came back from those wars as impoverished slaves with PTSD to boot and they came up with the brilliant policy of replacing us with immigrants when birthrates of the next generations started plummeting in response. None of this makes it the immigrants fault.

Where the fuck did 'middle class Guardian reader' come from? Is that me? The ONS? I was pointing out problems with the figures you were deploying which undermine the whole argument you are trying to make, some parts of which have merit.

Again, I say your beef is with governments who have clearly squandered the net economic bonanza of recent EEA migration m, rather than the immigrants who made that economic contribution.

And your suggestion that the only way a Muslim person would marry a British Muslim is because they are cousins is frankly laughable.

I think there should be immigration controls; I think immigration is a complex web of benefits and problems but that the evidence points to a certain balance. But the pure hate and vile towards immigrants of all backgrounds is so clear from your posts that I am going to bow out as I am clearly part of the problem in your eyes (as a post-2004 non-EEA higher rate tax paying immigrant who doesn't identify as Christian) so anything I say will clearly be wrong where you are concerned and ripe for misrepresentation and flat out lies, and I am honestly very tired of misinformed vitriol towards immigrants as if we are a homogeneous group leeching off the British taxpayer.

It has reached a point where I would leave were it not for the fact I have a family happily settled here and I am helping to support my husband's family.

Oh, but that doesn't fit your segregated stereotype, does it?

Our immigration problems were started because we shafted millions of people all over the world via the Empire. The least we can do is offer a few of them a council flat in return for decimating their countries for decades.

Good grief.

Somalian refugees (a French colony I believe) need social housing because they have no other means to support themselves. They are here because their own country has been turned into a death ridden hell hole. Anyone been on holiday to Somalia recently? Thought not. I think we need to be a little more gracious about this.

The area we do need to work on is European migrants. It's absurd that the people building our roads are Polish and Latvian while millions of Brits can't work.

or even Indians

even Indians?

There are certain statistics that you can make out of this where a higher % of UK nationals use some things than the whole set of non-UK

perhaps getting the statistics would be useful.

JassyRadlett, I am a middle class Guardian reader, I have mixed race children, Muslim inlaws, and so on. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go to Barking and try and tell the remaining historic white working class population that they should be thankful for immigration and massive social change. You might as well go tell the coal miners they should be happy the pits closed because there's nice clean call centre work available instead.

Writtenguarantee the stats are a google search away if you want them.

Clearly Germany and the US are wealthy countries with universal education and it's no surprise their migrants to the UK are successful. The same cannot be said of India which still has crippling poverty for hundreds of millions of people.