Law firm "don't talk about your kids"

[Handsfullandlovingit]

In a meeting, talking about getting rid of old (non confidential) papers I suggested it would make good drawing paper for kids.

My boss came in after and said "may I give you some advice? You shouldn't talk about your kids in meetings, you want to be seen as a lawyer not a mother." I said "god how depressing but thank you" and buried myself in a document trying not to cry.

I feel rather privileged to live in an era when I can do both without discrimination or judgement. Or having to deny a whole part of my life just to fit in. I want to be a mum and a lawyer and not pretend my kids don't exist.

Am I being unreasonably idealistic? Today I heard others discussing Wimbledon centre court tickets, shows in the West End, stuff I used to do before kids. I'm really cross, but is this just the real world?

Hmm. I think it's a really weird thing to say, mostly because I can't imagine even thinking something like that. I would probably think you were a massive stingy tight arse (are your kids so deprived of things to draw on you need to take them home?). Plus what the others said about confidentiality - cases should be double sided and mark ups aren't appropriate.

I do think there's a line to walk between talking about kids - I definitely talk about mine but I do not give people details of my life unnecessarily. For example if I need to take dc to the doctor I just say "I'll be in late I have some personal stuff to do". Same as I did pre-kids. A lot of the minutiae of how you organise your family life is irrelevant.

On the face of it, I agree with Signyourname up thread.

It seems a very OTT reaction to a simple suggestion as to what to do with non-confidential waste paper. It's not banging on about your children, it seems like a sensible solution to a problem to me

It doesn't seem particularly random to me either, it's exactly what we do with waste paper where I work

You must be aware that law firms can be strict and old fashioned in terms of attitudes towards dedication to the job

And the longer women continue to collude with those attitudes by toeing the outdated line that they should pretend to be automatons with no family or femininity, rather than demonstrating their dedication to the job by, you know, actually being good at it, the longer those ridiculous attitudes will remain and make life unnecessarily harder for those who come after.

what a twat your boss is OP

He's an arsehole. Ignore.

*SignYourName You must be aware that law firms can be strict and old fashioned in terms of attitudes towards dedication to the job

And the longer women continue to collude with those attitudes by toeing the outdated line that they should pretend to be automatons with no family or femininity, rather than demonstrating their dedication to the job by, you know, actually being good at it, the longer those ridiculous attitudes will remain and make life unnecessarily harder for those who come after.*

Where did I equate strictness and old fashhionedness with women? When I wrote that, I was actually thinking about how most of the partners (with photos of their families on their desktops) were active in their local church and generally keen to be seen as good all round people.

I have doubts over whether thinking about scrap paper for your kids during meetings and sobbing over documents is being that good at your job. And I would think that about a man or a woman. I'm sure the OP is good at her job, but there must be some explanation behind her boss, who is also female, making this comment.

Meant to add - my DH got asked a question at the end of a job interview once: - "What would you really like to do with your life if you could do anything" and he answered "a professional athlete".

He didn't get the job, and feedback provided was that they didn't think the job was his main priority and that he sounded distracted.

Would never mention my kids in an internal meeting either. I am the oldest women by far in my team and until recently, the only one with any children. Managing the expectations and even prejudices of male partners has been interesting. I don't think they even intented to be prejudiced and even noticed it, but for example, one of them once said to me "oh, I forgot, you don't have a wife at homw. You need one".

It is also my experience from previous firms that older female colleagues can be worse than male colleagues as they still perceive things to be the way they were when they were starting out and can resent younger women who have an easier time of it (wonder whether I am like that).

Ouryve, her boss is a woman. RTT, as it's a little more complicated than gavel waving.

I used to work in a male dominated industry, so I can understand the relict misogyny in her comments- it was advice suitable for her in her time.

I think you need to have a meeting with her and the HR manager. Ask what is appropriate in the company.

And lastly, why oh why are you doing overtime unpaid?
If you've taken a hit salary wise to do fewer hours, and are still in the office unpaid, your on a hiding to nowhere.

Renegotiate your hours as full time if you are there all the hours anyway, and if you don't want that at the moment, make it clear that you are there part time and you don't do overtime. Leave the door open to return to full time, and also get a different section, and boss.

Fight for your rights. Leave on time. Talk about whoever you want, and do your work.

In 30 years I can recall only 1 female colleague who gave up after having children and in her case it was because she moved to the middle of nowhere and had a ridiculously long car commute.

Maybe many of you have been spectacularly unlucky but you're not describing a work situation I recognise, although I would add I've not worked anywhere where personal life was much discussed.

This doesn't need to go to hr,what a disproportionate suggestion
Certainly op didn't care for the comment ,doesn't necessarily mean it was malevolent
I thnk op can if she wishes raise with her boss,a reflective discussion reaction it provoked

Oh my god. I'm a lawyer and I talk about my son all the time, sometimes to clients I'm friendly with who have children of their own (and some who I don't know have children.) for me I find it makes great common ground. One of the partners where I work has adopted two children in the last five years and talks about them all the time. She is one of the most amazing women I know. I'm gobsmacked at this persons attitude. Are lawyers not supposed to have children then?

I talk about DS at work but only when its appropriate, such as someone apologising for not ringing me back because of a troublesome 2yr old. I don't see anything wrong with me mentioning I have one at home and I know the feeling.

My 'work hat' then goes back on and I blow their minds with how awesome I am.

I was awesome before I had him and I'm even more awesome now

I can relate to clients who are mothers, I couldn't do that before.

But I don't have photos of DS on my desk because I would gawp at his cute fat face all day when I'm meant to be doing serious stuff for my boss to take the credit for.

Thank you for all the comments. It has certainly been thought provoking. I'm absolutely not going to take this to hr, I have talked about it with her like a grown up and we are going for lunch next week. I think my horrified reaction to her suggestion has really made her question her approach. It has worked for her though, she is incredibly well regarded and I think she's amazing.

I sought some real life advice from my friend. She had training at Norton Rose for women/mothers who are en route to partnership. The advice was if you are female, don't 1. Talk about your kids 2. Have pictures of your kids up 3. Bake, anything ever. But it's ok for the male lawyers to do that. We agreed that's grossly unfair, and it's important we keep fighting so the approach will be as follows.

Be amazing. Like you stiff I know I'm bloody good at my job, with appraisals to back that up. I shall work on being absolutely brilliant at my (lovely) bit of the law, achieve everything they want with knobs on and dare to mention my toddler while the kettle boils. Even have lovely scribbled drawings on my wall. If the old folks running the place have a problem with that I will have done my bit for the sisterhood.

Now I have to go. I'm burning dinner.

Done your nit for the susterhood?haha dont be so bumptious.and there no sisterhood
I have no scribbled drawings my kids done,displayed at work.doesnt render me inadequate mother
Are you kind of angling for a reason to get the hump about this.the comment was inane,and bit clumsy.thats all

I'm inclined to agree Scottishmumm tbh I'd have thought a law firm is a pretty easy option for a woman.

We have to abide by all employment law rights, we are far more likely than many employers to cater for flexible working/part time working, most will give paid sick leave, good holiday entitlement and above average pay.

Phaedra how do you account for the huge discrepancies in the progression of women solicitors then? For example at 10 -19 yeas pqe (which is the pqe bracket with the most partners in it) 44% of women (in that bracket) achieve partner status as opposed to 72% of men In that bracket).

Well done OP - keep up that approach.

I work at a magic circle law firm, and everyone chests about kids, has photos up etc. one partner's wife is a breast feeding counsellor and he always tells any pregnant colleagues about bf-ing which is a bit odd but sweet!

Chests??? Chats!

If your boss is older than you, it's possible that she's worked through times which were a lot tougher for working mothers and that she still feels that she has to hide the "mother" side at work to get on and is honestly trying to help you.

My Grandma, for example, managed to succeed in business in the 70s/80s when it was really anti-women and when I first started work she gave me lots of slightly odd advice such as don't wear skirts to work for at least a month, don't wear your hair down, insist on shaking hands and refuse to make tea until someone else has done so first.

It all seemed really OTT to me, but I guess these were things that helped her survive in a man's world (she also claims that being called Chris helped her succeed because everyone assumed she was male until they met so she got more interviews etc) and they've actually helped me on the occassion I've had to work with really old school men.

The thing is- these things are more finely nuanced than do/don't talk about kids. In my area (academic) there are approximately half the colleagues with children but also quite a lot without- including both male and female academics who are child-free. Some kids talks is fine- there are some men who leave early to do school pick-ups and so on. Individually, if you know the person has children- it's nice to have a quick 'how are the children?' conversation but in general, in group situations where quite a lot of people don't have them, I don't think it would make great conversation. Those that don't have them in my area primarily do so because they actively don't want them, or perhaps are in civil partnerships and aren't looking to adopt or are very career focused and 'kid talk' doesn't tend to go down that well.

Many patronizing comments have also been made about women who have 'done well' 'even though they have children' by which they mean have a job at all and women certainly have to be twice as good to be perceived as good at all- I know someone who was given a warning about lack of productivity in the 6 months they were off on maternity leave!

So it's an odd mixture of flexibility about the nature of caring responsibilities (I can even ask to not work at some times due to this, I limit my 'on duty' hours) and quite old-fashioned disinterest in people as people- engaging too enthusiastically in anything outside of work appears like you are not obsessed by your work and that's not perceived as a good thing, plus institutional sexism is rife.

I don't talk about my children unless I am directly asked. I have some pics in my office but thats it. I agree with Nigellasdealer - having children /taking (short) mat leave has definitely harmed my career and I avoid reminding people that my No1 priority might not be my job.

My job is not my priority, my children are which is why I don't mention them at work.

I'm a lawyer and a mum and this is all so depressingly familiar. I find clients much more understanding than lawyers themselves. I can't see it changing either, there is a million miles from Hr policies on equality and flex working etc and what actually happens on the ground. It's my eldest's birthday on Sunday and I refused to work on Sunday ( having worked 80 hour weeks for the last 2). Everyone pays lip service but it'll be held against me. The worst are female senior staff too.

I find the fact your descriptions of your boss and your future approach to work, include the words "cry", "sad", "lovely" and "sisterhood", far more informative about where your boss was coming from than anything else.