Law firm "don't talk about your kids"

[Handsfullandlovingit]

In a meeting, talking about getting rid of old (non confidential) papers I suggested it would make good drawing paper for kids.

My boss came in after and said "may I give you some advice? You shouldn't talk about your kids in meetings, you want to be seen as a lawyer not a mother." I said "god how depressing but thank you" and buried myself in a document trying not to cry.

I feel rather privileged to live in an era when I can do both without discrimination or judgement. Or having to deny a whole part of my life just to fit in. I want to be a mum and a lawyer and not pretend my kids don't exist.

Am I being unreasonably idealistic? Today I heard others discussing Wimbledon centre court tickets, shows in the West End, stuff I used to do before kids. I'm really cross, but is this just the real world?

She's possibly right if it was a meeting with clients. If it was an intra-office meeting discussing what to ddo with old supplies then it's a bit silly.

Phaedra Litigation generates mahoosive amounts of non-confidential waste - copies of previously decided cases from books.

But in my office that would be printed double sided so of no use to draw on. What the OP is describing sounds an awful waste of paper.

Given the context of the discussion - what to do with old non-confidential paper - her reaction sounds massively OTT. Unless you said it as "ooh, my kids could use it as drawing paper, little Sammy loves drawing, he's obsessed with trains at the moment, did I show you the picture of Thomas the Tank Engine he drew at the weekend...?" in which case, fair enough.

But if your comment was along the lines of "it would make good drawing paper for kids, we could put a pile on that empty desk and any of us who wanted to could take some home for our children" or equivalent - not inappropriate, not unprofessional and anyone who thinks it was needs a massive dose of wake-the-fuck-up with a side helping of welcome-to-the-21st-century.

If you'd said that in a meeting with clients present I'd not have been pleased. It says to me and the clients your thoughts were elsewhere and risks the clients thinking "am I the one paying for their inability to control the amount of paper being wasted."

We have a client we tender for and as part of the tender have to outline our green policy. It's fundamental that electronic communication must be used where possible and printed material must be double-sided. Your comment would have gone very badly in front of them.

Your boss is an arse, OP, and I'm sorry you had to listen to that. For what it's worth I find I immediately warm more to people I meet in a professional situation if they do mention their family. I feel more likely to trust them - don't ask me why - because I sense that they have a similar set of priorities to my own.

Again, your boss is a colossal dick.

she spoke the truth I am afraid.
never never mention your kids at work if you want to be taken seriously.
source - bitter experience.

I agree with NigellasDealer

Funny I assumed from your post that boss was a woman, I went back and checked when others assumed it was a man.

I don't think this would be on a man's radar. I think as a woman she is projecting her own beliefs about professionalism on to you. How do you know she has kids? She must talk about them sometimes?

I thought I remembered you OP, as a family member is a partner at Cliford Chance and we discussed one of your previous posts;
My boss went to a Clifford Chance reunion last month and met up with 10 or so female friends from training contract days. She was the only one still in law. They all had kids and found the law so inflexible they all got out. My boss like me is support lawyering which fits round kids so much better

I wouldn't normally mention what people have posted on other threads, but there might be a reason why she said what she did (assuming it's the same boss).

Agree with Pheadra - as an in house counsel, i would raise an eyebrow if you came out with that comment in a client meeting. It just seems a bit unprofessional and as if you are not thinking about the actual matter in hand.

No problem with talking about children - I do all the time but not DURING meetings (not even internals meetings personally) - I tend to save those sorts of comments (and the tennis/world cup/asking about someone's boring marathon training) for bookmarking the start and end of meetings ie when the mood is more relaxed and the discussion has become more general.

Are we talking client meeting here?

If so, I agree with her. As a part time lawyer I would not mention kids in such circumstances as some clients do think less of part timers. Clients often want a lawyer who is always available and on standby. This is usually easy to manage as a part timer by giving the impression that you are full time.

If internal meeting only then of course you should be able to mention your children. Although of course she may just be giving you a heads up if she herself has had bad experiences with colleagues. I have a had lots of issues with being part time and clients'/colleagues' expectations and attitudes.

Not a client meeting, few solicitors and admin staff, v informal, dealing with getting rid of old case reports, consulation docs etc. Yes, things have clearly been tough for the boss. It's sad.

I agree there is a time & a place for talking about personal life & kids but I can't see anything wrong with you making the comment you did when you did. In fact I made the exact same comment at a board meeting at my old firm (we gave a load of scrap to DSs nursery, saved on recycling costs)
If you talked non stop about them at every opportunity I'd say that would be a bad thing but the occasional mention just makes you human.

Another lawyer here, I do not work in a firm, but we all talk about our kids at work and my son has been in a good few times (he loves it there and a big fuss is made of him) as have my colleagues' kids. We do not as a rule discuss work really though as we are all self-employed and do not work together so it is a bit different. When I was a solicitor discussions about family and kids were common place.

A very senior QC who is now a judge once told me: "the very worst thing we as mothers who are lawyers can do is pretend our children do not exist" and I think that's important to remember.

The profession is notorious for being almost hostile to families but I have very fond memories of seeing a male colleague discuss a case with his counterpart with his young son strapped to his back in a sling

Are the other solicitors in the meeting effectively your "customers" within the organisation (I think you mentioned being a PSL?) Could that be the issue for your boss?

PS I would never do unpaid overtime. I get paid a part time wage, I do part time hours. Sometimes colleagues struggle with that, on the basis that everyone else is expected to do whatever hours are required to do the job. But my view is that this does not logically apply to part timers. I will do extra days, but only if I am paid.

Some law firms do make the effort (often token) to appear family friendly but the reality is most large city firms are still male dominated at a senior level.

I know so many talented female lawyers who have left the city to either work part time or not at all. For some that was by choice but for others there was little choice in reality.
It isn't an environment that lends itself to meeting fixed childcare commitment.
Yes there will be senior lawyers who have managed to carve a comfortable niche for themselves (it's easier to leave on time if you're already a partner) but so many more have fallen by the wayside long before fulfilling their true potential.

Having said that the comment about not mentioning kids (though probably well meant) was a bit off the point. It's working part-time that can kill your career, not talking about kids.

I think she is simply trying to give you good advice too.

A man can say things like this in a meeting (have often heard it) and the reaction is awwww, caring dad, but a woman is always thought to be thinking about the kids rather than the work.

These are grossly unfair perceptions but still hold true. Talk of Wimbledon is neither here nor there; it's the same as weather talk.

I would agree that in a meeting it's not great to mention family or drawing paper. From either sex this would seem to lack professionalism (and I have been a city lawyer for nearly 20 years).

It's fine to talk to your colleagues about them but clients do want the impression that you are focused entirely on work and there for them whenever they want - that's why they pay the socking great fees they do.

I did think of you OP when I came across this photo tonight. Do you think JFK was told to ditch his daughter's doll?

Another partner in a top 10 firm here, with DCs. I can see myself giving that sort of feedback if the lawyer was constantly referencing being a mother or talking about family sphere stuff in meetings (as opposed to hovering round the secretarial bays for a chat and a biscuit). No idea if that's the case. The guys I work alongside are hugely supportive and yes, we all talk about family, bring the kids to the office etc. But I'm not so niave to think there won't be perception consequences if my chat is always about family. OP - was that genuinely a one-off or do you think you are potentially slipping into being perceived as 'off-track', with principal focus on family matters. That definitely has professional consequences in some specialisms and firms. Also, I would give HR a wide berth if you have a concern. The issue could spin way out of control. Speak to head of diversity, or another senior woman equity partner who is invested in these issues. Get a mentor and get some serious advice on how best to present in your particular team and specialism. It's your career not a test case for perfect working conditions.

Goosey it was an internal meeting, no clients. And she did say she never talks about her kids, at all. Meetings, maybe, but ever? No way.

A man can say things like this in a meeting (have often heard it) and the reaction is awwww, caring dad, but a woman is always thought to be thinking about the kids rather than the work.

When I worked in IT - men talked about their families quiet normally but the few women who had families I encountered- very rarely mentioned them and then mostly in passing to other females like me not in front of the men.

It's something I noticed over time. Maybe your boss has had that experince more than you?

But none of us know the context. Is it possible that you have been distracted at work and this has been picked up upon, and the comment was aimed more at that, rather than "pretending your kids don't exist" - which is not what was suggested at all?

You must be aware that law firms can be strict and old fashioned in terms of attitudes towards dedication to the job, not all of them, but its certainly not a given that all firms are like this. I wouldn't get away with half the stuff DH gets away in his (non-law job).

But you do need attention to detail and the drawing paper for kids remark was such a random thing to say in a meeting. Fine if you'd said something more general but it makes it sound as if you might have been thinking about your children more than the meeting.

As for the "burying yourself in a document and trying not to cry" - is that not a bit of an overreaction? Its not as if you were given a formal warning or even a real row. I did my training contract in quite a strict firm, which was not unusual in commercial law, and I got the impression it was meant to weed out the sobers into the documents type. Sorry to be harsh.

wow in an internal meeting specifically to discuss what to do with reams of unwanted paper, it's a bizarre response (in the absence of a backstory). I do think however that generally, her advice is good, and your reaction suggests that there may be a backstory.