how to handle an expressing mother in class. WWYD?

[susanjones123]

NC because this will definitely out me to any colleagues or students.

One of my students (I'm an HE lecturer) had 6 months off recently to have a baby. She's now returned to study which is great and we are delighted to have her back. The department has been very accommodating for her and let her miss classes, leave early when necessary, bring her baby to meetings etc.

So far, so fine.

She's still BFing and using expressed milk when her DH does the feeding. She uses an electric pump. The problem is that she uses the pump in the classroom. I don't mean in the actual class, during the lectures but at the beginning when everyone is arriving and sometimes during group work activities. I, personally, find this very off-putting (not putting me off my teaching but just generally quite off-putting) and other students have commented quite negatively.

As the main academic she has contact with, I feel as though it falls to me to have a word about this but I'm really unsure how to handle it.

I bottle-fed both of mine from day 1 so I'd really appreciate the experiences of people who have BF on this, please.

if someone is discomfited by a behaviour that is intrinsically harmless and not indecent, like gays holding hands, morbidly obese people wearing cycle shorts, old people snogging, or indeed, women expressing or breastfeeding, the general rule of thumb is to expect them to suck it up

But most of that is not ok in a place of work like a lecture room. PDAs from anyone - no. Anyone wearing cycling shorts regardless of size - probably not quite right for workwear although students have different rules. BF ok as essential for newborns. Expressing not. This is not a place to express (!) who you are - it's a place of work effectively and social rules apply. That's why none, old or young, should be snogging ...

Well I think it is. If she doesn't have the intelligence to realise that maybe the classroom isn't the appropriate place, and the maturity to simply call HR and ask what is normal procedure here; do they have designated rooms?; if not can they arrange one?; then she's not that mature.

But I would have loved to have seen the MN thread had I started expressing during Year 11's lessons on Macbeth.

As long as it wasn't preventing you from teaching I think it would be fine. The more young people see mothers BFing and expressing the fewer visceral reactions against it there will be.

Of course she shouldn't be pumping in the classroom around other students.

Why? What will happen to those other students?

They can hear a noise. That's it.

Are you worried that they will be contaminated by the presence to breast milk?

They are only uncomfortable because they haven't been exposed to it before.

Sorry my post was addressed to toothytwo.

But why is it not appropriate Up?? Exactly?

Ok - this is the law on breastfeeding:

"Further and higher education bodies must not discriminate, harass or victimise a student who is breastfeeding in terms of admission or provision of education or by excluding the student or subjecting her to any detriment. This includes access to benefits, facilities or services."

Why would that also not apply to expressing, as this is necessary for some mothers to do in order for their baby to have breast milk?

If a student is expected to leave a room in which teaching is happening, because she's expressing or breastfeeding she is having her access to receiving a full and equal education to her peers restricted.

"BF ok as essential for newborns. Expressing not."

Expressing is essential for some women in order to continue breastfeeding when they're separated from their baby for hours at a time. Some babies are fed exclusively on expressed milk because they're unable to breastfeeding.

Why is it inappropriate? As for expressing in pubic I never did with a pump but I went on a weekend well two night? Away when I was feeding ds3 he was 18mths and I had to express, I did it by hand and I didn't need to keep the milk so I expressed leaning over a sink In a public toilet and bathroom, basically my boobs hurt I needed to get the milk out, some people came in to use the toilet and they saw, I at that point didn't give a toss I needed to express. If I had had a pump I would have sat somewhere and done it, I had a friend that expressed in a cafe before, her baby wouldn't latch so she would eexpress and feed, she just had a hand pump and did it whenever and had a cool bag for milk so she always had milk for babies next feed.

Its not a common sight I will grant you but some people do it and its prob not a common sight because bfeeding levels are shite in this country.

Meh doing it before the lesson is fine, of noiseason is a problem maybe a quieter pump or a room if she wants one but she shouldn't be made to go to a room because some people are squeamish about bfeeding.

Why is it inappropriate? As for expressing in pubic I never did with a pump but I went on a weekend well two night? Away when I was feeding ds3 he was 18mths and I had to express, I did it by hand and I didn't need to keep the milk so I expressed leaning over a sink In a public toilet and bathroom, basically my boobs hurt I needed to get the milk out, some people came in to use the toilet and they saw, I at that point didn't give a toss I needed to express. If I had had a pump I would have sat somewhere and done it, I had a friend that expressed in a cafe before, her baby wouldn't latch so she would eexpress and feed, she just had a hand pump and did it whenever and had a cool bag for milk so she always had milk for babies next feed.

Its not a common sight I will grant you but some people do it and its prob not a common sight because bfeeding levels are shite in this country.

Meh doing it before the lesson is fine, of noiseason is a problem maybe a quieter pump or a room if she wants one but she shouldn't be made to go to a room because some people are squeamish about bfeeding.

LeBear, do you think it's the same thing, though?

These are adults. They are not children and should not behave that way.

upwith - yeah, no doubt having babies has made her mind all stupid, innit? The ones who're saying breastmilk makes them queasy are really showing her up on the IQ front.

"Well I think it is. If she doesn't have the intelligence to realise that maybe the classroom isn't the appropriate place"

Why is not an appropriate place?

Do you also feel that breastfeeding is inappropriate in a lecture room?

When I went back to uni after having ds1 my boobs often got too full and were uncomfortable, I didn't think to ask for somewhere to express but then my uni made me get a Drs note to say it was ok for me to go back to uni after having my baby so am not sure they were up on equality and protecting the rights of bfeeding mothers!

"and the maturity to simply call HR and ask what is normal procedure here"

Why should she ask?

She's not running a coffee bar at the back of the lecture hall.

up because the more the 'sanctimonious' tolerant people speak up the closer we will get to making women feel like it's acceptable to breastfeed and express in all types of circumstances.

I certainly wasn't trying to make anyone feel like they are from the dark ages.I doubt anyone else is either.

Just that it really isn't a big deal. It should be cool to do it. I really can't see why it can't be cool.

Mini if a significant number of students are complaining then it is probably not an appropriate place.
It's a classroom, not a place for pumping, changing nappies, eating lunch, listening to music, chatting on your phone or any of the many normal acceptable things that people do every day. Just because some people feel a class room is not an appropriate place for pumping does not mean they're anti breastfeeding or pumping, however much of a crusade you would like to go on.

"But most of that is not ok in a place of work like a lecture room. PDAs from anyone - no. Anyone wearing cycling shorts regardless of size - probably not quite right for workwear although students have different rules."

Yes - students do have different rules. They wear what they like, no matter what their shape or size, and teachers and other students accept they have no right to have a say as it's nothing to do with them!

As for things being 'appropriate' for different work settings - really, you need to explain WHY some things like expressing or breastfeeding aren't ok at work, or I'm going to lump you in with all those old dinosaurs back in the 1970's who raised exactly the same objections about women in positions of seniority, or women wearing trousers to work.

It's not appropriate for the same reason that all the other things I listed are not appropriate. Ina group or public setting certain behaviours are required so that everyone can feel at ease. That's why you don't snog your bf while sitting next to your tutor - or sit on the desk or sing your questions....

And no you won't get me to say that Bfing is weird or unacceptable although you want to put me in that bucket.

We've almost all bfed and probably most of us have expressed. I also run a workplace and I wouldn't be happy to allow someone in my workplace to do this.

Oh fgs. How does anyone think that's right? She should use an office

I certainly wasn't trying to make anyone feel like they are from the dark ages.I doubt anyone else is either

Sadly...

I'm going to lump you in with all those old dinosaurs back in the 1970's who raised exactly the same objections about women in positions of seniority, or women wearing trousers to work

I'm going to be boring here, but since the OP is, strangely, not around ...

In the UK, academia has a real problem with women. Women drop out of academia in pretty scary numbers. The percentage of maths academics who're women, for example, is in single figures. Women go into undergraduate degrees in good numbers. They go on to MA studies in decent numbers and PhD ... and somewhere along the line, they drop out.
This starts somewhere, and it fosters a culture. HE is male dominated. It is not welcoming towards mothers.

An NUS survey found that well over half of all students who become pregnant felt unsupported by their universities. And teenage mothers (which includes a lot of students though probably not one who's already married!) are likely to have lower qualifications than their peers.

I know this thread is a bit odd, and I can see lots of people would find their gut reaction to breastfeeding would be different, but it does seem a bit crap to me.

"Mini if a significant number of students are complaining then it is probably not an appropriate place."

Hundreds of students came out in the 1950's in the USA protesting about racially mixed classrooms, and how inappropriate it was. Students are like anyone else: prone to outbreaks of fuckwittedness about things they are culturally unfamiliar with and mistrustful of. Breastfeeding and expressing fall into this camp.

"It's a classroom, not a place for pumping, changing nappies, eating lunch, listening to music, chatting on your phone or any of the many normal acceptable things that people do every day".

If a mum has to breastfeed, or has to express in order to keep breastfeeding when she is regularly separated from her baby, then the likelihood is at some point she's going to have to do it in a lesson if she's studying, or in a work setting if she's at work. Lactation is a normal part of being a woman and a mother. Saying 'lactation is inappropriate' in educational settings is like saying 'mothers are inappropriate in educational settings'. ie, bollocks. I'd absolutely bet my bottom dollar that the mum mentioned in the OP expresses in lectures because the only other option is regularly missing part of the lecture while expressing outside. Her expressing helps her breastfeed her baby and continue her education AND IT HURTS NO ONE.

Can I make that clear?

I'll say it again IT HURTS NO ONE.

What she is doing is not intrinsically indecent.

Nobody is forcing students to watch the woman expressing her milk, any more than they'd be forcing them to watch her breastfeed if she had her baby with her, and yes - there would be many students who would be profoundly discomfited by having to sit next to a woman who was breastfeeding too.

quangle - so, you'd be ok with her breastfeeding in this situation, it's just the expressing?

Is it possible she's also worried about the baby screaming the place down, so the expressing is the 'least worst' option here?

quangle my apologies! (actually made me lol how you delivered that! Egg on my face). people say all kinds of shit when they feel strongly about something. Everyone here is very much on the breastfeeding is ok bus but I, and others, just don't see why this particular scenario should cause upset. It's just not a big deal. The word 'inappropriate' keeps getting thrown around. But why is what I don't understand.

Your words:

If a student is sat next to her drinking cows milk (or, tbh, anything) from a carton using their mouth, why is expressing human milk from her breasts the thing that's inappropriate.

Strange example.

I wouldn't mind sitting next to a student drinking a glass of cows milk. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to be sat next to a cow that was being mechanically milked.

Everyone isn't ok with breastfeeding, though, there are plenty who would say that breastfeeding in class is not acceptable.

In an education setting as a student, yes. Although I would prefer to see the mother of a young baby have the appropriate leave. I don't actually think that looking after newborns and engaging in a task such as studying for a degree are best done together. But if it's in the mother's best interests then fine.

As a teacher, no. Either you are working or you are caring for a child. Not both. It certainly would not be ok socially or practically at my work but I had mat leave and then went back to work FT expressing at the beginning in my lunch hour etc.