Effectively asked to leave cafe..AIBU or was he?

[Hoptoit]

Today my husband, 3 yo and 2 yo twins went for lunch in a small local cafe that we go to maybe once a month. It's quite informal and I took the pile of kids toys as an indication that families were welcome. The twins were fractious and hungry, and having a bit of a shout, but we ordered food and waited for them to settle. There were about two other tables of people in there at this time.

After we ordered the owner made a comment along the lines of 'give it a rest now kids' which I took as a joke, then about 5 minutes later, after the children's food had arrived, but before my husbands and mine had he came over and said,'your going to have to stop them making this noise, they are disturbing everyone else lunch. It's just not on.'

So, my husband ate a bit of his lunch then took the twins to sit in the car while I picked at mine. Just after he left a lovely lady on the table next to us came over to say she'd heard what he said and was disgusted and wanted me to know she hadn't complained to him about the noise, and that she planned to say something to him when she left. I'm ashamed to say that I was so embarrassed and stressed that this made me cry.

As I went to pay my £30 bill for the mostly uneaten food, he asked me if everything had been ok?! I said I was mortified by what he'd said. He got all chippy and defensive about it so I didn't say anymore.

It has ruined what should have been a lovely day. Twins aren't easy and I am very conscious if not impacting on other people negatively, but this place gives the impression of being child friendly, and we weren't letting them run wild or anything like that.

So what do you think, was he out of line or should we have left sooner? It was a terrible mortifying experience.

Maybe we should see it another way..when people see a child who is unhappy and upset they want everything possible to be done to stop that child being unhappy and upset. That doesn't make them bad people.

Yes I have found (having a 'different' child) that people get pissy over ridiculous things. I do my best, and if he's being very loud then I'll remove him if possible, but sometimes it's not (for example shouting because a train hasn't started moving - not much I can do, although I know he'll stop as soon as the train moves). Other times though people will get very irritated because he is (for example) standing in slightly the wrong place in a queue (he's not going to do anything like push in - he just wants to stand where he can see the front). I'll apologise on his behalf if he is doing something that might be difficult for other people (eg shouting until a train moves) but not if he's doing something that affects no-one (standing in the "wrong" position according to convention but not in anyones way).

Given how intolerant I have found some (actually the minority) can be - I read the OP as someone who had come up against an intolerant person. Especially as another customer went out of their way to say she didn't have any problem with the way the children were behaving.

I think the reason that people cringe when someone comes into a cafe/onto a bus etc is that's lot of parents quite happily let their children scream/shout and run around. So even the majority of parents who don't do this are automatically judged.

Of course children make noise. However it can be difficult to filter out because of the pitch, more than the volume. And presumably if you have young children you are used to it, to a certain extent.

So if the pitch is the problem, even if there is not much volume, then what are parents expected to do about that?

The people on the bus were tutting glaring and muttering, it wasn't cringing, and dd was just sitting in her pushchair not making a sound. I still can't work out what they were so angry about.

Sorry, can't read 13 pages but this happened to me twice once er 3 times . I think I may have let my kids be a bit noisy kids.

if I go into a cafe and kids are being noisy I usually think it's my problem if I'm irritated, not theirs - unless the kids are being brattish and the parents are being indulgent, which doesn't happen very often. My kids are grown now and other peoples kids can grate a bit but that's my problem, my choice to put up with it or go somewhere else.

I had a preternaturally 'good' child, through baby and toddler stages - fascinated by other people, smiley, quiet and gentle, blew kisses at everyone, and easily comforted with cuddles if a frown happened, only wanted to evetted pepper and cucumber sticks etc... Oh and loved books so we'd both sit there reading our books in peace.

And by golly I found my area a delight to go out and about in, friendly and helpful, very welcome in cafes and restaurants. And quite a few people, usually elderly ladies, would come over and tell me what a wonderful mother I was and how gorgeous my son was...

And yes, before you all throw up or try and stab me, I knew full well I was blessed and it had nowt to do with me, but it compensated for the sleepless hell and other rubbish things that happened outside of buses and cafes.

and then, when he was 3.5, he turned into a late blooming tantrumming expert, a ball of frustration and noise. And I got a taste of quite how miserable it can be with a desperate screaming child and trying to calm and shush and then leave in a hurry. God it was awful. And it's really upsetting when you're already flustered and stressed to have people judging you.

I did find that apologising profusely and being seen to Do Something helped, as it is annoying when everyone in the restaurant is being disturbed, except the oblivious parent of the noise monster. It looks like the parent is content to impose on everyone else's experience, and spoil it, when the parent is the only one in the whole place who can solve the problem.

And yes, sometimes you have to wait for food outside, or get coffee in a takeaway cup etc, or pack up and go home but that's ok, as it's just part of being a parent.

I had one beautifully behaved child, and one small monster. If the monsterchild acted up, I simply removed her from the situation. I also used to go everywhere armed with plenty of distractions, snacks, and drinks. Sometimes it's not possible to leave, but it is possible to do your best to deal with the situation. People see you doing hour best, and they are understanding. It's when a parent ignores the behaviour, or doesn't try and deal with it, that annoys me.

Gosh what a lot of self-righteous huffing and puffing on this thread.

Now my son is in preschool I sometimes find myself in a Starbucks of a morning, getting some coffee and enjoying some rare kid-free time. Sometimes there are kids making noise but if I find it disruptive then I can just leave. Why is there this assumption that young children should be seen and not heard and have less right to public space than adults do? To be honest I find braying self-righteous adults shouting on their mobile phones or being rude to staff more annoying than children. Some loud bwanker braying down his phone will prompt me to up and leave more quickly than a child crying. A child under 3 is pretty helpless. A grown adult should know better.

I've had more meals ruined by loud obnoxious adults in high-end fine dining places than I've had meals ruined by kids in casual cafés. And the fine dining places annoy me more because they cost an arm and a leg! I don't really care if a screechy toddler disrupts my quick sandwich and coffee in a Starbucks-type place.

gosh that's true. I remember one expensive meal completely ruined by the braying lot at the next table going on about their second homes and their trips abroad. god they were awful. I can't actually think of a meal ruined by children- and I spend lots of time around kids withe learning disabilities so they're hardly up on the "children must only be seen sitting neatly colouring in" rules.

I was brought up to only join in conversation if I was actually contributing, in a child like way. I've turned out alright.

I've spent time in various countries on the continent and have never seen the appalling behaviour British children display.

As I said way upthread - I either think children are adorable or god poor parents, that looks a nightmare, maybe ttc could be put off a bit

I like seeing seeing children in restaurants. I was taken to eat out from a v young age. It's only screaming that rborhers me.

I think I'm just going to follow Alis about, agreeing with all her posts.

I've lived on two different continents, I can hand on heart say that the majority of British children are appallingly behaved compared to children from most other countries.

YABU. Other diners shouldn't be able to hear your children. I was on the train yesterday & could hear a toddler 4 rows in front of me. Control your children & have some consideration for other people. Agree about British children being more badly behaved.

YWBU OP, it sounds a miserable experience for the other diners. However having read the thread I know you will ignore my opinion. With 3 very small DC why do you want to eat out? Sounds like hell.

When I am out for coffee or a meal I don't want to be spoken to, bumped into, have a balloon in my face, get kicked or have my bags knocked by a child and I don't want to listen to screaming or crying.

However happy well behaved children are a delight to see; I was in a cafe last week and a little girl was quietly blowing bubbles in an area away from the tables. A little boy watched for a bit then joined her and ran about popping them. It was beautiful to watch.

Yes, YABU and i say that as someone with young children. We eat out with the kids every Saturday and the occasional Sundays. We have done this since they were babies, in fact, dc2 went to his first restaurant at 4 days old. So, while OP will ignore, I don't haven't forgotten what it's like.

The comfort of other diners is important to me, so no it wouldn't be okay for the dcs to scream and shout while I left them to try and "settle" down.

If you're going to eat out then you need to prepare rather than hope for the best. First thing is not waiting till the kids are hungry before you find somewhere to eat. Eg at home, they eat at 12.30pm so we go to the restaurant at 12pm so that by the time we have ordered and food has arrived its 12.30pm. Also, my handbag contains a pencil case with crayons etc, and i always carry colouring books with me. It keeps them distracted while food is coming. I also have a couple of mini toys in there to keep them distracted. Finally, I carry a water bottle and breadsticks on me so that worse case if the service is really slow they have something to munch on. The one time they misbehaved, we left the restaurant and they haven't done it since.

But people can often hear children, as people can hear other people.

Surely it is not right to apply a different standard to children as to people.

And the tone thing - children have higher pitched voices than adults that can't be helped and for people who can't stand to hear that pitch to expect children never to make a noise or talk that just doesn't seem realistic to me.

Although like I say once some people were angry on the bus while DD was sitting there in silence and so we got off I guess that was the right thing to do. That was only 1/2 hour to go to get home though a train journey is likely further getting off the train seems a lot and it is expensive is that what is expected?

I was also going to go to the doctors but again what can you do if one of them makes a noise or talks and others are going to be angry then it's best not to go. I mean cafes can be avoided and also trains and buses as well quite a lot unless it's something important and obviously you can put off going to the doctor for yourself but if a child is ill or, like mine has an appointment to have her hearing checked coming up and she is 4 and is quiet and well behaved but she will talk to me and sometimes laugh also play with the toys they put out and that obviously makes a noise a bit and now there's this whole pitch issue that I hadn't even been aware of I mean really that is a thing so actually not sure what to do there.

"However happy well behaved children are a delight to see; I was in a cafe last week and a little girl was quietly blowing bubbles in an area away from the tables. A little boy watched for a bit then joined her and ran about popping them. It was beautiful to watch."

You see a lot of people would consider that unacceptable and surely parents need to be looking out for anyone at any level of tolerance not only what some people might be able to tolerate.

Whatever I do to prevent ds's annoying behaviour, I cannot eliminate it entirely. He will not be what many would consider to be well behaved because his level of disability prevents that. As long as I am doing my best and he is not being dangerous or destructive, that should be enough. When we go on a train I'm sure the whole carriage can hear it. My family are part of society too and we also should be given consideration.

I always ALWAYS make them apologise if I see anyone looking at them like they are maybe feeling a little put out like the other day I was tying DD1 shoelace and so was crouched on the floor and a teenager was walking that way and said "You're in the way" so obviously we got up and went and apologised to her and I made DD apologise and then we asked where I could tie DD shoelace from

I mean you try your best but people still get angry and you're always in the way and staying indoors is much better really but you have to go out sometimes and everyone gets so angry and this pitch thing has freaked me out a bit what can I even do about that. They are 4 and 6 and I don't think their voices will sound more adult until they are in their, what 20s, even teenaged girls have quite high pitched voices and yes I guess a lot of people don't like teenage girls but by then I suppose they won't be out

love you seem to be quite down and unhappy and maybe that is making you a bit sensitive?

I'm sorry you felt you had to get off the bus - because that is no on. I can honestly say that in over 40 years of daily commuting ther's only been one time when I felt really hacked off with a noisy child - and that was not the child's fault. He was being a child - it was the mother who kept saying "Don't do that. If you do it again then I will do X." Only she never did! it was just the same thing repeated ad infinitum. Truly the bus journey from hell!

ALl children will "act up" from time to time and most people don't have a problem with that, as long as the parents are trying to do something. Letting your three children carry on screaming and shouting without doing anything to try to calm them down is what posters are finding unreasonable. It is the parents' lack of parenting that is being criticised, not the child. Hope that makes sense!

FWIW I met a delightful little girl on the bus on Friday, who sat and chatted with the other passengers. Nobody had any issues with that at all. Her mum also had a toddler with her. Again, no problems. When they got off, a mum got on with a baby in a pram. Still no problems. Seeing babies and children on transport is a normal part of life.

But that is just you Katie others do not feel the same way and surely parents need to cater all people not just ones who are as tolerant as you.

Like this pitch thing that's got nothing to do with behaviour and so a person is going to get angry even if a child is just talking and so there's that, I didn't even know that now I can look out for it if I go out with the kids which let;s face it is a terrible idea you just have to be on high alert all teh time for them making a noise or talking like yesterday we went out because DH was here and we went to one of those cafes with a soft play and DD dropped a spoon twice and you see |I didn't think anything of it but after thsi thread clearly their behaviour needs adjusting or maybe mine |I don't know I can wait until she's not going to dro anything but even adults do sometimes but the pitch thing at 4 and 6 their coices ae high pthced

Like zazzie can those train journeys be avoided, or can you go and stand in teh corridot or something I think it's fine but a lot of people dont and like the poster says why the fuck should they have to put up with any noise from a cild or in the doctors surgey or wheever there's no need for it

Yep, a bit of pre-lunch screaming and shouting

Hmmm, "screaming and shouting"? Well, that's annoying to everyone, IMO. So YABU.

well i amn thee is need for it babies cry and toddlers make a noise and zazzie's child has disbilitis which makes him more noisy that si children if it's not accetpable it's not acceptabel but not everyone feels OK with sytaing in all the time and what is its something important

i supose liek with my children they are having tehir birthday party next week and it's teh first one not at home what do i do about that hwo can i make them i dnt' knwo what be silent change their pitch peopel are going to get angry and i can't take tem al; outside thete's 20 of them