to think faith schools should be banned?

[fluffymouse]

Not just because they aren't inclusive or diverse, but also because of the local impact.

My nearest school is a faith school. Every day when I drive to work, I see dozens of cars parked along the street of the school with parents dropping off children. They park everywhere on a very narrow street including double yellow lines and the zig zag lines outside the school. It seems like nobody walks to this school, as it quite simply does not serve the local community.

Local people have no chance of sending their children to this school unless they are off the faith, and they have very strict criteria for this. Meanwhile locals also have a lot of congestion to put up with. There is obviously also a big environmental impact.

Aibu to think that state schools should be inclusive, and not exclusive based on faith grounds, as all tax payers are contributing towards their running costs?

maidofstars my mother was educated at a convent school and she always told the story of the day the nun told the class that only the Catholics were going to heaven and everyone else was damned to hell

Pretty much the lesson in my school too. Fortunately, it didn't impinge too much on my personal beliefs (or lack of), except to strengthen my conviction - I went in an atheist and came out an atheist.

Donnie, these religious 'rights' you speak of are catered for by churches. State schools should not be used for brainwashing.

We removed the DSSs from a secular state school (France) and put them in a Catholic school. Divisions on religious and cultural lines were rampant and unpleasant in the secular state school. Religion and culture are a non-issue in the Catholic school.

Although it's a local issue I can see where OP is coming from - near us there is one non faith and 2 very faith schools. There is a mad scramble for places and massive over subscription. 85% of children at the non faith school walk and there is little issue with cars although it's the biggest. The side roads round the other two however are total bedlam morning and afternoon - cars parking every where and over peoples drives etc as the children travel much further and much much more in cars. Loads of people can't get a place in any if them so have to go miles instead, as they have no faith or do not wish to pretend and go to church for 2 years ...

People already have a right to practise their religion, or choose not to practise one at all.

I think people are confusing religious freedom with religious privilege. Having 'VIP access' to a state-funded school according to your religious preferences is a privilege, because it puts others at a disadvantage.

I would like to use public money to set up a school for atheists where if there is any evidence that either you or your family practice any religion then you cannot apply. Sound like a good idea?

Genuinely curious to know what the public response would be.

Where did the catholic church gets its money from? I believe it is mostly from torture and slavery... Many years of continued torture and slavery, to be exact.

A (non faith) school near me was originally founded with money from a donation from a well-known slave trader- doesn't seem to bother the many 'pointy elbowed' MC parents desperate to get their DC into this outstanding establishment. The local university has acquired a lot of its wealth through the generosity of a local family who made their money through the tobacco industry - if you go back far enough most institutions have obtained their wealth through means that would not be deemed ethical today. No need to single out the Catholic church!

Maidofstars: I don't have greater choice of schools available to me. My dc are not eligible to go to the Jewish schools or the Catholic ones, only the C of E ones. And because we are religious,I do not regard them as eligible for the non denom ones either, so I guess that makes us equal.

But donnie they don't need to be educated in a religious school. God won't turn his back on them just because they're not studying on church funded ground for 6 hours a day. Will he?

Dirty atheists though, innit?

Teaching pupils that religion is to be sneered at and that god doesn't exist.

Said no state school ever.

"And because we are religious,I do not regard them as eligible for the non denom ones either, so I guess that makes us equal."

No it doesn't. Because you "choose" not to send your child to a non denominational school. You could if you wanted to.

Yes, there it is -thanks unrealhousewife, that sort of really nasty, sneering comment is what upsets me so much.

if you go back far enough most institutions have obtained their wealth through means that would not be deemed ethical today. No need to single out the Catholic church!

But those other funders are not still running the schools, and choosing who gets to go to them!

AND in a lot of cases, making references to how it was 'benevolently' built by the church and how their 'Christian values' make them so good (as opposed to the feckless non-Christians, presumably).

Exactly Hakluyt, in the same way that so many non religious people "choose" to send their dc to religious schools by deciding to go to church and so on. It works both ways. Personally I dislike this practise as it is hypocritical IMO.

I

You may not regard them as eligible for a non denominational school but the selection criteria of the school won't say "because you are religious you come further down the pecking order when we decide which pupils are eligible for a place" therefore its not the same

Oops.

I'm afraid I have very little sympathy for anyone in a position of privilege whining when that position is attacked.

You are benefitting from a system that discriminates in your favour. Fair dues, of course you'll defend it. But don't expect those discriminated against to understand.

Donnie of course it is hypocritical. It's just as bad as people who buy houses close to outstanding schools they know their children are not eligible for and then agitate to get the admissions rules changed to 'reflect the local community'. You never hear much about people wanting to change the rules so that their DC can attend a faith school in special measures.

Not sure.

I would feel more acceptance of faith schools if they weren't allowed to select on the basis of faith or ability.

As a rule I try not to judge parents for being hypocritical, because really they're just trying to give their children the best chance in life - annoying and hypocritical it may be, but I can't say I wouldn't compromise my own convictions if I was convinced (right or wrong) it'd help my children have a better life.

The system, I can judge, though. No idea why public funding is given to schools that practice religious discrimination. That's just outrageous.

People will always want to get their children into a good school. And yes, where the good schools are near the expensive houses it's unfair, though this won't always be the case, aren't some catchments specifically designed to cut across as many types of housing as possible? However, there will never be a completely fair system that suits everyone and allows unlimited choice.

The truth is that religious discrimination usually favours the middle classes - so is generally compounding the unfairness, not the other way round.

religion has no place in schools.
faith is just something personal to you.
education is what school is for - not religion.

Bamboo - CofE maybe. Catholics? Not so much.

YANBU. I am Catholic and DS goes to a Catholic school, because it's the best fit for him in the current system. But I don't see why we have faith schools at all and would have no argument if they were abolished. I can still take DS to church and teach him myself.

I think the house price premium near good schools is actually exacerbated by faith-based admissions. Non-churchgoers are competing for fewer places at schools with faith discrimination admissions criteria - often around half of overall intake, add in siblings who are admitted under sibling criteria not part of church quota and there are very many families competing for very few school places - hence pressures on house prices very close to these schools.