to think faith schools should be banned?

[fluffymouse]

Not just because they aren't inclusive or diverse, but also because of the local impact.

My nearest school is a faith school. Every day when I drive to work, I see dozens of cars parked along the street of the school with parents dropping off children. They park everywhere on a very narrow street including double yellow lines and the zig zag lines outside the school. It seems like nobody walks to this school, as it quite simply does not serve the local community.

Local people have no chance of sending their children to this school unless they are off the faith, and they have very strict criteria for this. Meanwhile locals also have a lot of congestion to put up with. There is obviously also a big environmental impact.

Aibu to think that state schools should be inclusive, and not exclusive based on faith grounds, as all tax payers are contributing towards their running costs?

In what way would you expect a school to serve its community fluffy?

oh, I don't know, how about accepting local children?

Thanks written I was going to respond to those posts but see you have done so for me.

People have a right to choose and practice a faith, but this should happen outside of school hours, or they should pay for a private religious school.

If catchment schools are oversubscribed, they usually go on some variation of a list like:
looked-after children
walking distance to school
siblings at school
possibly primary attended.

Which are all really just increasingly specific application of the catchment ideology - so not selective.

Anyway, yes, OP - YANBU. Schools should educate the children who live near to them and not bus in Catholics (or whoever) from miles away whilst the child next door can't get in. Just wrong.

Written guarantee - you don't pay for religious teaching, at Jewish schools, at least. It's paid for by a special parental contribution.

Fluffymouse - thanks for saying I can practice my faith - how thoughtful of you! But what if it involves kosher food or taking off festivals. Both would be very difficult in a secular school. Jewish schools break up later to make up for days lost to religious festivals.

Sam- if you want a Jewish education then you pay for it. Just as if you wanted an education based on any other faith.

I agree Sam, this is a privilege which people should pay for if you are unhappy with the community school provision.

Even secular schools allow Jewish children to take religious holidays off, and as for kosher food you can supply a packed lunch. Not that hard!

Regardless of voluntary contribution made by parents, religious state schools still discriminate based on religion when they are funded by all taxpayers.

YANBU. But not really because of the school run issue.

More because it's massively discriminatory that children are only allowed to access a state school - which is funded by everyone - if they are a particular religion.

Can you imagine if there was an NHS hospital that only allowed in Catholics? Or a fire station that only served those who regularly attended the local church? There would be an outcry. Why on earth are schools any different?

Hakluyt/Fluffy - in case it wasn't clear, the taxpayer doesn't pay for Jewish education. It's the parents who pay.

Do secular schools let you have all the festivals off? The ones I spoke to about DC seemed to think New Year and Yom Kippur were ok, but not much else. As for the discrimination, like all taxpayers my taxes help to maintaining lots of churches, but very few synagogues. They also pay for bishops, most of whom I disagree with on almost everything. I don't see this is any different from the schools situation.

I note there is a thread about the Mosaic school in S London, where the complaint is that the (Jewish) school is open to everyone, but they have to learn Hebrew.

But sam the school is still primarily funded by taxpayers and discriminates on the basis of religion. Do you not see that as fundamentally wrong?

Do you not want your children to integrate with children of other faiths?

I don't understand, Sam. Is it a private school then?

hakluyt I think Sam means that it is a state school, but the parents pay a voluntary contribution. In my experience of Jewish schools this is primarily to fund extra security, but also contributes to RE/hebrew studies.

The school is still primarily funded by the taxpayer.

Unless this is a private school sam ?

No - state school, but religious bit funded by voluntary contributions. That is standard, for Jewish state schools at least. I would like the DC's to integrate, but for primary school I'm happy for them to get comfortable about being Jewish. They have plenty of non-Jewish friends outside school.

Sam even if the religious bit is funded by parents, the rest of the education is funded by the taxpayer. So it's highly discriminatory for non-Jewish children to be unable to access that education.

Your analogy about taxpayers funding churches and synagogues doesn't quite work. I and my children are able to walk into and enjoy the services of churches and synagogues if we wish. We just choose not to. Whereas my children are excluded from religious schools. My main issue with state funded religious schools is not that I disagree with what they teach - it's the fact that access is determined by religion. In many other contexts that would be illegal.

As it happens, though, I don't think churches and bishops (or the equivalents from other religions) should receive state funding. Except insofar as needed to maintain the buildings.

Sam, I agree that the state shouldn't fund bishopsetx. But for me the huge difference between that and schools is that the state requires every child to be educated, with the assumption that the education should happen in a school unless the parent wants to and is able to opt out. The state (through local govt) is also required to provide a school place to any child who requires one. The state then allows religious discrimination about how those school places about how those places are allocated, putting some children at a significant material disadvantage and entrenching middle class privilege, all through the disbursement of state funds.

It would be very simple for the state to regulate on this, but the last time they tried the outcry and resistance was even greater than when some areas have introduced lotteries or fair banding admissions systems to avoid house price catchment discrimination.

Sam- how do admissions work?

you don't pay for religious teaching, at Jewish schools, at least. It's paid for by a special parental contribution.

why not? Sounds discriminatory towards Jews! In any case, most of the money comes from the public.

thanks for saying I can practice my faith - how thoughtful of you!

you joke. The trouble is people say that and then conclude they are entitled to public funds for faith schools. The two are separate. One is a right we all accept, and the other is not.

But what if it involves kosher food or taking off festivals. Both would be very difficult in a secular school. Jewish schools break up later to make up for days lost to religious festivals.

those don't justify you are own state funded discriminatory schools. is vegetarian food kosher? Does that not give plenty of options? as for religious holidays, sure. A state school should allow those to be taken off.

Abra1d when you said "The only people who are ever unpleasant to Catholics these days have been atheists on MN. No trouble from Jews, Muslims or Anglicans." you misunderstood my point.

Someone was imagining that we're against faith schools because we hate Catholics.

Atheists generally don't care about differences in denomination. We're not sticking up for the Baptists against the Catholics or for the Quakers against the Methodists.

As far as I'm concerned all religious people are living in a elaborate fantasy world. Being a baptist is not more sensible than being a Catholic, Muslim, or a believer in Lizards or in Brownies.

The people who oppose specific religions are religious themselves because they think one religion is better than another. Throughout the world religious people are murdering each other for being the wrong religion. They are just not doing it in your English town.

Now has anyone here been told on applying for a school "You can't come here because you are not atheist" and if it started happening at school after school would you be perfectly happy with that?

"I'm sorry, but it has come to our attention that you attend church occasionally so we don't want your child in our school."

As for the discrimination, like all taxpayers my taxes help to maintaining lots of churches, but very few synagogues. They also pay for bishops, most of whom I disagree with on almost everything. I don't see this is any different from the schools situation.

I agree with you on this. this too is bad. both practices should stop. The Lords having seats for clergy? It should all go.

BOB - you've put your finger on the difference between us.

I don't think you're living in a fantasy world - you're entitled to do, and believe as you wish. Similarly, I don't believe Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc are wrong, and wouldn't dream of criticizing their beliefs.

Suppose you got your wish - school is opened up to everyone. Then the boards would be full of people complaining that there was too much time spent on Hebrew and religious studies, and saying that when they sent their child to a Jewish school they never thought they would be exposed to any of this.....

BOB - throughout the world people are murdering eachother for all sorts of reasons. Don't forget there are plenty of religious people who are murdered and/or oppressed by secularists (the Chinese govt's systematic dismantling of all Tibetan monasteries is just one example). Don't imagine that atheism = peace loving. Was Pol Pot religious? was N Ceaucescu?

As SamG76 says you are welcome to your beliefs, just as religious people are welcome to theirs: but it would be sensible and mature to try NOT to belittle them by calling deeply held beliefs " an elaborate fantasy world....like believing in lizards or brownies". This is exactly the kind of sneering spite which has bullied people off this thread.

I am really happy that we have such a wide variety of schools. Where I live in North London , I have Cof E, Catholic, Jewish, Greek Ortho and Steiner schools nearby. There are non denom as well as religious ones and IMO that is a reflection of the massive cultural and religious mix which exists around me.

Sam I think the point is that such things should not be taught in schools beyond ' some people believe' and basic facts about religion. You can do the religious teaching outside school. I would have no issue with this as a practising (albeit dissenting) RC.

donnie the point about putting it like that is that some people suggest that I only feel that way about Catholics. No one else suffers persecution you see except Catholics. It seems to be one of the core beliefs.

Of course atheists kill people for all sorts of reasons. Some as simple as wanting your wallet, but believers kill for all those same reasons (look up the statistics). The slaughter and abuse of people for being the wrong religion is in addition to that.

Your difficulty with accepting that people are being murdered for being the wrong religion only supports my point. When you look at a a news article about Christians being killed for not being Muslim what do you see? A blank page? A picture of some flowers? a story about Muslims and Christians holding hands?

SamG76 It's perfectly possible to have state schools open to all children of whatever color, race or creed and then teach about religion in general. Most do that already.

What faith schools want to do is teach that one religion is the only one, to make the children actually bow down and worship that god and to keep out the followers of false gods. (or rather keep out their children)

That is morally dubious even if they were paying for the school and in most cases they are not.

I don't believe Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc are wrong, How do you manage that bit of mental gymnastics? If I show you a Christian and a Muslim who both think the other is wrong about god you will agree with them both?

Sam- you didn't say how admissions to your school work.

Donnie- is that an example of the bullying you spoke about earlier, and which I asked you to say more about? Somebody saying that for them personally belief in God has mo more validity than belief in Brownies?

Dos that man that when people of faith say that I don't have a moral compass because I am an atheist, I can say that I being bullied by Christians?

Look, the bottom line is this. Schools in this country are largely paid for by taxes that everyone pays, regardless of faith. But there are schools that not every child is eligible for, because there is a faith criterion on th admissions code. So my child could live next door to St Polycarp's (a favourite saint of mine) and not get in because we are not church goers. My child would have to go to Bash Street School which is a two mile walk away. But a Christian family living next door to BSS would have a choice of BSS or St Polycarp's. The Christian family has a choice of two publicly funded schools. I don't. And I don't see how anyone can make that fair.