to think faith schools should be banned?

[fluffymouse]

Not just because they aren't inclusive or diverse, but also because of the local impact.

My nearest school is a faith school. Every day when I drive to work, I see dozens of cars parked along the street of the school with parents dropping off children. They park everywhere on a very narrow street including double yellow lines and the zig zag lines outside the school. It seems like nobody walks to this school, as it quite simply does not serve the local community.

Local people have no chance of sending their children to this school unless they are off the faith, and they have very strict criteria for this. Meanwhile locals also have a lot of congestion to put up with. There is obviously also a big environmental impact.

Aibu to think that state schools should be inclusive, and not exclusive based on faith grounds, as all tax payers are contributing towards their running costs?

"I do find it interesting that supporters of faith schools never address the really difficult questions. 1.My post to muskey of 11.05, for example. 2. Jassey's situation. 3. My hospital analogy. 4.Why it would be a bad thing for people who attend church only to apply to church schools. 5. Why church schools have a much smaller proportion of children attracting pupil premium than other schools. 6. Where the "nasty bullying" on this thread is. 7. Why the state should make provision for the preferences of people of faith when allocating tax payer's money for education provision and not my preferences.........."

Could you have a to at some of these, please, Sam? It'll mean referring back to previous posts- I apologise for that.

Not all 'people of faith' are disagreeing with the OP. See my earlier post. I am Catholic and DS goes to Catholic school- I would have no issue with all schools becoming secular.

loletta, I agree with you!

My comments was with reference to the status quo, where we do have faith schools.

I, too, would love it if religion was kept out of schools altogether, except where it was necessary to learn about world religions as part of RE.

Where I live the majority of state schools in the immediate area are CoE or RC, so roughly two thirds of school places are reserved for Christian parents who get 'first dibs'. I'm in inner London so I'm pretty certain that the provision doesn't reflect the population.

The CoE ones will at least theoretically allow non-Christians in when the Anglicans are fully catered for, but prioritise non-CoE Christians for the remaining spaces. However, they will at least take kids in care, regardless of religion. The RC one won't touch non-Christians, and won't even take looked-after Christian children unless they are specifically Catholic.

So members of two denominations can apply for 100% of local state schools, and be given priority access 60% of them, while the majority of residents who practice other religions or none have to fight it out for the scraps. The Council have just announced that 6% of children haven't got any offer of a place this year and you can pretty much guarantee that not one of those children is CoE or Catholic as they always go to the top of the queue.

Does anyone really think that's acceptable?

Sam - exactly what businesses would those be? If a Jewish school closed / moved and there was a need for local school places, it would hopefully be replaced by a more representative school.

In fact why don't they just swap premises with a school from a more 'representative' catchment and stop students having to commute in both directions?

Alternatively, why don't they accept children from their local community if they want to sit within it - since they're willing to take money from the state?

donnie and others who feel similar. As a slight tangent, I am intrigued by your assertion that you do not feel your (Christian) child to be eligible for the non-denom schools in your area.

I was wondering what exactly made those schools ineligible (in your opinion). Some aspect of the teaching/curriculum? Maybe they will learn about things you don't want them to learn about? Maybe the nurse will give them condoms? I don't know, just intrigued....

JR - I'm not sure if there is a desperate need for local school places. The LA seems very keen to keep the school where it is. Many of the parents would be delighted if the school moved to a leafier area, but I don't see how doing so will make anything any more equal. The hospital analogy is poor, because people go there in an emergency. There are Jewish old age homes, and I don't see a problem with that....

It wouldn't worry me if non-Jews attended DC's schools. I'd be quite pleased, actually. I'd also have no problem if schools were secular.

SnowinBerlin. I think your example perfectly highlights how ridiculous the current situation is. It nothing short of scandalous. I don't understand why something can't be done.

anti-catholic prejudice

The only people who really care about which denomination you are will be other religious people. From the outside there is no significant difference, but some other religions or denominations will hate your one because you are rivals.

Wonder what would happen if we gave the churches what they wished for. Make a law that you can only go to the church that matches your beliefs.

We'd have to build lots more schools as for each area there'd have to be a school each for Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans and Baptists, Seventh day adventists, Methodists, Muslims (a school for each kind) , Hindus. Then there's Pietism, Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism. Oh we'll need a school in each area for Pagans, Buddhists (each variety), Presbyterians, Quakers and I nearly forgot Jehovah's Witnesses.

Apparently to give everyone their 'right' to a faith school would mean at least 4,200 schools in say each 5 mile wide district.

The only reason that doesn't bother the pro-faith-school people is because what they really mean is "a school for MY religion and I don't care about those other people's children".

Where are all these religious people insisting on a religious education for their religious children?

My kids go to CofE primary and I only know 1 church going family. I go to church about 4 times a year, school related (happy to), and didn't pretend I did to get the kids in.

People send their kids to CofE schools because they good schools. That is down to the teaching, not the religion. If they weren't good schools, people would send their kids elsewhere.

If my kids school separated from the church tomorrow, that would be fine with me, and most other parents, as long as the approach to teaching remained the same.

I picked this school because it was the smallest in the area and closest to our house. The fact that it was CofE was not particularly relevant.

"I picked this school because it was the smallest in the area and closest to our house. The fact that it was CofE was not particularly relevant."

But if it had been oversubscribed, you wouldn't have got a place, however close it was to your house. That's the point!

I just wanted to respond to some points as the op. Yes I do drive to work but I work over 10 miles from home, in a location that is not well served by public transport.

I simply wish hat schools would be community schools and serve the local children, which would eliminate the donkey derby that goes on around some religious schools. My nearest 2 schools are religious, one is literally on my doorstep, and takes absolutely no children of other faith. Note I didn't mention a denomination as this thread is not about that.

I am religious myself, but would not send dd to a religious school as I want her to go to a diverse school (and believe me the community schools here are!), a local school, and I don't believe religion has a place within school. I would support the French philosophy of complete separation of religion and state. Religious practice has no place within the education system, there is plenty of time at the weekend!

But it wasn't.

I think it's a myth that faith schools are all oversubscribed. Especially at reception level. Churches are not full. There are not 30 parents attending church on a monthly basis just to get their child into a 'good' Ofsted school when they're in catchment for 3 other non-religious 'outstanding' ones.

I can only speak for where I live, but the faith criteria isn't often applied here.

The parking thing is a red herring.

"But it wasn't.

I think it's a myth that faith schools are all oversubscribed."

They aren't. That's the point too. It's only the oversubscribed faith schools that are significantly better than any other school. They ones thqt aren't are just the same as any other school.It's nothing to do with the "faith-ness", it's the "selective ness" that makes the oversubscribed ones better.

It's nothing to do with the "faith-ness", it's the "selective ness" that makes the oversubscribed ones better.

I agree. But this applies to every school. An oversubscribed school has to apply criteria to select. So what fair criteria could be applied. The non-faith schools use catchment, which can be argued as equally unfair.

What is the answer?

"I agree. But this applies to every school. An oversubscribed school has to apply criteria to select. So what fair criteria could be applied. The non-faith schools use catchment, which can be argued as equally unfair. "

I'd love to hear the argument for catchment being as unfair as being a member of a church as an admissions criterion.........

.

Ok, again, I can only relate to where I live. I have a choice of 3 secondary schools. All less than 1.3 miles from my house.

School 1: a grammar. Entrance exam criteria imposed there.
School 2: large shiny school with excellent sports facilities. Has a catchment tighter than a cats arse and I cannot move into it as I can't afford to buy/rent within it and am not a candidate for social housing. Wouldn't do either of these anyway.
School 3: mediocre comp with ok facilities. Catchment goes on for miles, is undersubscribed, struggling to lure people in.

None of these are church schools. But this, it seems to me, is a more unfair situation than the primary one I was faced with.

It's irrelevant what the criteria is, it is still imposed when a school is performing well.

The only people who really care about which denomination you are will be other religious people

This has not been my experience. The only people who are ever unpleasant to Catholics these days have been atheists on MN. No trouble from Jews, Muslims or Anglicans.

Every time atheism is mentioned on mumsnet the haters come out. I just don't understand why atheists are considered fair game.........

I don't believe they should be banned but I don't believe they should be state funded. They should be run privately and supported by other means than from the public purse.

This has not been my experience. The only people who are ever unpleasant to Catholics these days have been atheists on MN.

The only people who are ever unpleasant to Catholics are atheists on MN? Really? You might want to have a little think about that.

Care to back that up with some links, Abra?

Yabvu and ridiculous. People have a right to a faith and how to educate their children. People 'indoctrinating' children with a belief of God is equal to people 'indoctrinating' their children with the belief that there is nothing. Find something else to judge.

of course people have the right to educate their kids as they see fit.

why I should have to pay for it AND have my kids excluded from it is absolutely ridiculous. You want to send you kids to a faith school? then pay for it.

The only place in the UK where mass discrimination is tolerated is our schools.