to think faith schools should be banned?

[fluffymouse]

Not just because they aren't inclusive or diverse, but also because of the local impact.

My nearest school is a faith school. Every day when I drive to work, I see dozens of cars parked along the street of the school with parents dropping off children. They park everywhere on a very narrow street including double yellow lines and the zig zag lines outside the school. It seems like nobody walks to this school, as it quite simply does not serve the local community.

Local people have no chance of sending their children to this school unless they are off the faith, and they have very strict criteria for this. Meanwhile locals also have a lot of congestion to put up with. There is obviously also a big environmental impact.

Aibu to think that state schools should be inclusive, and not exclusive based on faith grounds, as all tax payers are contributing towards their running costs?

I realise I'm late to the party on this one, but I agree very much with the OP but for different reasons. My nearest school is a faith school (Catholic), and we can't get in there. Fair enough, it's not my faith. However that school is funded mostly by the LA, and our LA is particularly short of school places. Our school has been squeezing bulge classes in for the past 6 years, the children have lost their library, their computers, their art room, they can't have assemblies all together any more because every square inch is used to accommodate the bulge classes.

All the other primaries in the borough are also having to make the same sacrifices. Apart from the Catholic schools. Because there aren't enough people who meet the criteria to create a bulge class and the school couldn't possibly alter it's criteria to accommodate children who desperately need a school place (seems to me a fairly Christian thing to do). So children lose their access to a library because a religious school that takes public money won't bend it's rules to allow the public to be educated there.

I agree ravenAK, church schools are divisive. The church should be pouring its money into local schools for disadvantaged children of all faiths or none. But it isn't.

Hakluyt, what are the 'searching questions' I will have to brace myself for ? I hope my children are clear-sighted, that is how they have been raised and I have never had to lie to them about faith / school etc. to date.

"But I don't understand your hostility - is it wrong to even take part in a church service unless you are willing to sacrifice your life to Christ?"

No. But it is wrong to go to Church every Sunday for the sole purpose of getting your child into a particular school. Apart from anything else, it is perpetuating a hugely unfair system. And telling children that this is an OK thing to do is highly questionable morally, in my opinion.

But then, I tend to find the "looking out for Number One" approach to life distasteful. But hey ho. Each to their own.

FWIW when I was the governor of a CofE school, as an openly Atheist person, but confirmed and baptised, I was chosen to redraft the RE inclusion policy as I did not attend any of the local churches

My kids came home and talked about baby cheeses

We don't have to ban faith schools since it would be easy enough to just remove their special right to discriminate. Just making them obey the equality laws would be enough.

In the meantime while I don't like that people pretend to be religious to get into a school I can understand it. After all if lots of schools were controlled by criminal gangs and the only way to get into your local one was to pay a bribe then you might do that.

It's a sad state of affairs though and high time we dealt with it.

I'm not sure you can equate going to church to paying a bribe to a criminal gang - but I suppose this depends on your view of organised religion!

I don't pretend to be religious - doing that for years to get into a good school would be hard work and you would have to lie to your children, which I wouldn't want to do. The Dcs know that to get in to the school they have to come along every week and learn about Jesus and Christianity.

I just don't get how going to church if you're not a believer and getting into a good school is morally wrong and selfish, 'looking after number one' whereas going to church if you are a believer and getting into the same school is your right and privilege so your children can get the education that you want them to have.

The church should be pouring money into local schools for disadvantaged children of all faiths or none This actually made me lol. What money exactly?

I just don't get how going to church if you're not a believer ..... is morally wrong

BLERDY HELL
some of you people really do not GET the point of religion.
Utter Utter hypocricy.
You stand there and lie in the face of the priest who probably believes
If the old git is up there you are in line long before honest atheists like I am

And to those who say that the church (up thread particularly Catholic) is morally superior, I give you
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/10931277/Catholic-archbishop-defrocked-by-Vatican-for-sexually-abusing-teenage-boys.html
www.komonews.com/news/local/Archdiocese-of-Seattle-will-pay-12M-to-settle-sex-abuse-claims-264497711.html
www.economist.com/news/international/21602248-bid-hold-catholic-leadership-responsible-paedophile-priests-looming-shadows
www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/cabinet-approves-support-package-for-magdalene-women-1.1843677

Faith has no place in state funded education
or tax breaks for religions

This actually made me lol. What money exactly?

Well the Catholic Church is not short of a bob or two, which they could donate to the welfare state.

Church of England presumably owns a lot of very valuable property it could sell off to help the poor, including all those school buildings.

But they won't of course, because they are self-interested organisations.

C/E are trying to keep their heads above water, same as any other organisation. Time they've paid for upkeep, repair and running costs of their valuable properties plus parish share etc there's not enough income generated to be pouring into deserving causes. Can't speak for RC finances though.

MaidOfStars

Your RE was more open to other faiths than mine was.

Sounds like it's not the faith school that's the problem but the parking. Maybe occasional dawn raids by traffic wardens would be the answer.

In that case, punk, why don't they gift church schools to the state to relieve themselves of the maintenance burden?

Because most church schools are not theirs to gift. They are lea owned and maintained.

"Because most church schools are not theirs to gift. They are lea owned and maintained."

Great. So super easy for them to say "we no longer wish to apply discrimatory admissions criteria at the schools carrying our name"

Sorted.

If you don't agree with the admission criteria and values of a faith (or any other school) it's also super easy not to send your child there.

Sorted.

but thats the issue, its not always super easy to not send your child there. I am lucky, I live in town with plenty of schools, but I know some people have been allocated a school they don't want because of shortage of place.

Others live in areas where they have only one choice of school (normally faith) unless they are able to drive for miles and miles to get to a school.

Parents actually only have limited choice when it comes to which school their child is sent to. Faith schools add another limit into that choice for many

punkrockergirl- do you really think it's fair that a child can live next door to a tax payer funded state school and not get a place because they aren't Christian or the right sort of Christian? While a Christian family would have a choice of that school and the non denominational school down the road?

Religion itself is devisive which is why I don't attend church. Religion should be kept out of both politics and education. I speak as someone who teaches in a faith school.
Religion is a means of control. Used to make people keep in line and not question things in the past. Its also believed to be a way of making sure that people treat each other well (live morally). This, I believe is not necessary as the majority of people will act generously towards each other without the threat from some big being in the sky.
We should not be indoctrinating our children into one apparently true faith. We should be educating our kids to be tolerant and accepting of all faiths, beliefs and lifestyles.

Ooh, punkrockergirl, it's super easy? Perhaps you can sort it out for me, since it's so easy?

Our nearest schools are all CofE, with selection by church attendance. We do not live close enough to either school to have much chance of getting one of the very few distance places after church attendees and siblings are taken into account (the nearest school has taken no kids on distance in the last 3 years, despite a nominal non-church intake of 30). House prices in streets with a high likelihood of admission rise by £500k.

The next nearest schools are also good but have tiny catchments, we have very little chance of getting into one of them.

Our neighbours were offered a school miles away at the other end of the borough, despite living within 600m of two schools.

Please, please, tell me what the simple answer is? I'm clearly being immensely thick. I'd quite like my child to go to a local school, with people he can socialise with and remain part of his community, rather than a 25 minute drive away to a failing school. Can you sort the solution for me, if it's do fair and simple?

You see, I just don't understand how anyone can justify state funded faith schools. There must be a bit of my brain missing or something.

"People of faith want them" seems to be it. Why do the desired of people of faith carry more weight than the desires of secularists? Particularly bearing in mind that there are people of faith who are also secularists.

We should be educating our kids to be tolerant and accepting of all faiths, beliefs and lifestyles.

Does that not include teaching them that some people believe that education does include an education in their particular faith, and as such their particular church, which is funded by the people of the parish, have paid money into a school for that purpose. In a tolerant and accepting society that is seen as ok, no? Because accepting and being tolerant of other views is being, well, accepting and tolerant.