to think faith schools should be banned?

[fluffymouse]

Not just because they aren't inclusive or diverse, but also because of the local impact.

My nearest school is a faith school. Every day when I drive to work, I see dozens of cars parked along the street of the school with parents dropping off children. They park everywhere on a very narrow street including double yellow lines and the zig zag lines outside the school. It seems like nobody walks to this school, as it quite simply does not serve the local community.

Local people have no chance of sending their children to this school unless they are off the faith, and they have very strict criteria for this. Meanwhile locals also have a lot of congestion to put up with. There is obviously also a big environmental impact.

Aibu to think that state schools should be inclusive, and not exclusive based on faith grounds, as all tax payers are contributing towards their running costs?

stanleyLambchop
No, no irony at all. My moral compass is founded on "do no harm" and seeking out scientific understanding.

The Bishop who confirmed me - knowing full well I did not believe a word of it - was the biggest hypocrite I've ever met.

TalkinPeace - I think that the point was that "beardie weirdie on a cloud" is not "good manners"...

nor is fundamentalist Islam

yanbu

if the state pays it should be open to all before you even get to the details of catchment not being able to get in the school next door because you don´t believe and being able to select from outside the local community

I am an atheist but my children can choose to be anything they want in their own time. Until then they should not have schools selecting on their parents faiths

and I do find it annoying when people I know get much more superficially religious when it gets close to school selection

what soundedbetter said.

'Bearded weirdie' wasn't terribly polite, but after all, the gentleman in question is either non-existent & therefore not capable of taking offence, or omnipotent & therefore quite capable of taking summary vengeance...

Implying that students at a faith school are more likely to benefit from a caring ethos &/or teachers more capable of maintaining order was quite unnecessarily offensive, I thought.

Particularly when you extrapolate to the idea that non-Christians are also worse parents, given the importance of caring and discipline to both teaching and parenting.

Cheesecake you crack me up.

A*s all round please, amen.

YANBU, OP, but it's nearly impossible to ban faith schools. Generally, the church owns the buildings, so if you banned a faith school, you'd have to buy the building from the church, or somehow rely on the church's good nature (ha!) to allow the state to use the building as a community (non-faith) school.

The one thing you could do is insist that they have inclusive admission rules that didn't prioritise children of religious faith.

Of course, you might also ask: why would a church only want churchgoing children in the first place? Think about what Jesus would do - the Jesus who suffered the little children to come unto Him, and who consorted with prostitutes and outcasts. Would he want the school to:

a) accept allcomers, regardless of belief or church attendance
b) give priority to people who baptised their children and went to church three times a month?

It's not difficult, really.

"It's a shame these discussions always degenerate to people being plain rude about other people's beliefs. It is possible to disagree and argue a case without being derogatory."

I agree. I just wish that the faith based side honoured that too. I try never to be rude. But when I am repeatedly told I have no moral compass, that I am less caring than Christians, and, on this thread, that Christians make better teachers, it is sometimes hard.

"The nearest outstanding school to me was a faith school, therefore I went to church for 3 years to get DD in. Not a problem, not hypocritical, not 'pointy-elbowed'"

How, exactly, is that not hypocritical?

Actually I don't think that is hypocritical. If the requirement was 'must attend church', not 'must believe in Mr Beardy', then the PP diligently ticked the box by putting her bum-on-pew time in. Especially as she's cheerfully acknowledged that she was working the system.

It's an unfair system which is in no way fit for purpose, but I'd prefer to see an impetus towards fixing the unfairness rather than blaming individuals for working with what's in place, tbh.

It's certainly less disingenuous IMO than convincing oneself that faith schools get better results through direct divine intervention!

Just watch those angels dancing on the head of that pin over there...

I just find the whole idea of either lying to your child about your faith or getting your child to lie about your faith deeply distasteful. Just ...icky, really to think about the conversations you would have to have.

We applied to the local community school for DD but she was rejected initially on distance grounds. The council gave us a place at the local CofE school (undersubscribed, terrible reputation, and was taken into special measures not long afterwards) and essentially told me I couldn't turn it down, even though if it had been a better school it would have been allowed to reject her because her parents are atheists.

The idea that I am paying for state schools to choose and exclude on the basis of religion - any religion - makes me ragey.

Oh gosh yes, having attended a faith school myself as the child of atheist parents, I'd go with 'reared by a wolfpack, a kindly bear, a panther & a camply sinister snake' for mine as a preferable alternative.

But I can understand the premise of 'we wanted our dc to attend this school, there was a hoop, we jumped through it' as being a reasonable response to a corrupt system, I suppose.

But, Hakluyt I haven't had to lie about my faith or ask my child to lie about theirs. It they get 'turned' to Christianity by their weekly attendance or the school, good for them I see no harm in that. They know that I want the best for them and to go to this school, we have to go to church every week and learn about Christianity because it is a CofE school. My child has said 'I don't believe in God' or 'I'm not sure' and I've said 'That's fine, you're 12, many people get through their whole lives not even considering the question so it's good that you're even thinking about it. They know that I don't believe in God right now but like being in the company of people who do and I am always happy to learn more. I've never had to lie.

"They know that I don't believe in God right now but like being in the company of people who do and I am always happy to learn more. I've never had to lie."

So what does it say in the admissions criteria? Nothing about being a practising member of the church? Did your dd have to be baptized? Did you jut sit in the church and say nothing- not joining in the prayers or anything? Did you stop going the minute the letter dropped on the mat?

i don't really agree with faith schools, but dd1 is about to start at one. I am a christian, but don't think it is fair for state schools to discriminate on the grounds of faith. I had a choice - nearest comp (needs improvement), 2nd nearest (used to be private, lottery admission, no-one I know who put it down got in), or 3rd nearest (faith school, outstanding). I chose the faith school, but don't really think it is fair that other parents don't have that option.

The admissions code for our school was baptised, and the priest had to sign a form to say the applicant was 'known' to him. Some priests are more flexible with the meaning of 'known' than others. It does not ask for church attendance. Therefore that would include the 'chaotic' families mentioned up thread, the priest could know them for all sorts of reasons, not just through mass attendance.

Of course not, Hakluyt (besides I've still got to get DS in yet, and he's only 8!) DD was baptised as a baby - mostly to please my mother, to be honest, we were living in another county at that time so it wasn't particularly to do with schools although I've no problem with people who do that either.

I join in the songs and the prayers - who doesn't want world peace and to be a better person next week? I listen to the readings and the gospel and the sermons because I am genuinely interested from a cultural point of view. I receive a blessing and I find it lovely that these generous spirited people want me to share in their God. I don't feel like a hypocrite and I don't think the congregation would judge me.

The admissions criteria for all CofE schools near me are strictly attendance based. Bums on seats at least twice a month for two years.

One school takes attendance at Sunday School.

No mention of practising the faith or baptism. Quite a shameless way for the church to keep up its attendance figures, really. One local vicar quite happily admits that his congregation would be halved if it weren't for parents attending to get their children into school.

"I join in the songs and the prayers"

No problem with the Creed, then?

I would also brace yourself for some pretty searching questions from your children soon- they are uncomfortably clear sighted in my experience,

No- out of respect to their religion, I don't say those words in the same way that I don't take communion, although I was confirmed as a teenager.

But I don't understand your hostility - is it wrong to even take part in a church service unless you are willing to sacrifice your life to Christ?

I do tend to feel bemused by the priests who perpetuate this, mind you.

Surely, if you have anything about you - & any understanding of the word 'minister', you'd really squirm every time you signed off a clued-up pew-squatter, knowing full well that there were children from 'chaotic' families in far greater need of the advantages of attending a good, local school.

I'm not a Christian, so I don't claim to understand how a Christian ethos works in practice, but where education's concerned it seems to involve less caring & more pulling up of drawbridges. Very contradictory. I must be missing something, I'm sure.