To wonder if teacher is wrong?

[sezamcgregor]

Had meeting today with head teacher re DS's progress he's 6.

We've had problems and I'm having regular meetings to discuss progress and to get guidance with my parenting.

I've been told that I speak to DS like an adult because when he does something g wrong, I often explain to him why rather than just saying No. Just No.

I always had the idea that if you were fair with children and have them a reason why we don't do things, it would be better on the long run as thy know why and we're not just saying No for no reason or just for the sake of it.

I really feel like I've had the carpet pulled from under me as this is something that I've always really believed in having thought that if my own mum had told me why more often I would have understood things better and would have understood that she was being fair rather than just snapping that No means No all of the time.

She's made it very clear that I should stop explaining my Nos and should do a No means No approach.

Thank you all for posting, it's really given me some food for thought.

"He is a ring leader and children do what he says and play his games, so they are trying to empower children in his class to be able to say no to him etc"

I wonder if he is refusing to listen to the other children when they say no to him, and insisting on questionning their decisions. This can be quite intimidating for some children and may come across to them as bullying.

I agree with annebullin that the HT may be suggesting that the "balance of power" is off within your home and this may be leading to your ds questionning teachers about their decisions in a way which is not appropriate.

It's very easy to get drawn into negotiating. My daughter was an expert at it. I found myself turning into my mother and answering her 'why's with 'because I said so'.

That is a very specific thing to 'guess' OP.

What does general knowledge have to do with obeying a simple instruction and/ or interrupting others?

Because she said that I talk about things to him.

She was not specific. She could not think of an example.

She said that I speak to him like an adult. She says that I talk to him about things. After I was really struggling to understand what on earth she was on about, she started talking about saying no and not explaining myself.

She left me really questioning myself - hence the thread.

I agree that there is a balance - too much explanation means that the real point can get lost in amongst all the longer term consequences, and does open up your reasoning to be challenged. All well and good sometimes when you can talk about the whys and wherefores, but not ideal when you need a child to stop doing what they are doing immediately and not engage in a debate.
I'm sure you can find a way to combine the two without either leaving him confused or ending up in an endless discussion over something that should have been a simple no. Perhaps a quick explanation the first time and then just 'I said no' to any follow up questions.

Which professionals has he seen? If they've ruled out ASD then presumably he's seen a speech and language therapist as well?
I would find out who 'school health' is exactly.

I think the Head is struggling to explain to you that she thinks some of the difficulties with your son stem from him thinking he is the one in control. How he is interacting with his peers and teachers leads her to believe you are no exercising enough authority over him.

Hmmm...I think there's probably an issue with obedience here. Does he do what he's asked or does he question everything and is therefore disruptive? Kids do need a degree of 'because I'm in charge and I've said so'. This has to be balanced with explaining things, and letting them be heard. But you can't run a class that way or the whole day would be taken up with discussing why we have to hang up our coats, not fold them neatly and put them on the bench.
I think she's trying to find a polite way of saying 'he needs to do as he's told without us explaining the logic or our reasons to him'.

I think it depends if the child views your explanations as room for negotiation, leading to you changing your mind and him getting his own way. There's no harm in explaining 'why not,' briefly, pleasantly and firmly, but be clear that it's not up for debate and your answer remains the same.

It is quite simple. The dynamics in an adult-adult conversation are very different to the dynamics in a child-adult conversation, especially if the adult talking to the child is their teacher.

My alarm bells are ringing for you...tell us please do you think there may be a reason for him having "low self-esteem" or do you honestly think that this isn't the case. He might actually be an alpha male type of person and naturally confident. How has the HT been able to assess your 'parenting style' and come to her conclusion?

IMO some situations require an explanation and some situations require a "no" followed by "because I said no" if necessary.

Please don't let your confidence as a parent be undermined.

Anne - thanks for your post.

He's seen the school doctor (she's based at the local hospital); Behaviour Support who has done a couple of observations and given strategies to help with behaviour; SureStart worker (who's done Boxall charts) and HT has discussed him with Ed Psyc when she comes on her rounds, but he has not seen her.

Discussed a few months ago (maybe January) that if strategies that Behaviour Support had suggested had not worked then they would refer him to Ed Psyc. Strategies seemed to work and so they did not refer him.

I feel like it's one step forward an two back sometimes. They say he's making progress, but still have something that I need to improve or change every time.

As a secondary teacher, I have certainly come across children who don't understand that an adult is in charge and they should do what they are told. If you say 'no' and give an explanation, is that explanation then up for debate and he can get you to change your mind? If so, then to him no doesn't mean no, no means let's argue my point over yours. Teachers don't have time to enter into mini negotiations over every point. They also don't have the time to give explanations for every instruction. If your DS isn't used to obeying reasonable instructions without needing an explanation, or without arguing the point, then this will cause problems at school. A classroom is not a democracy but certainly there are students who think they have an equal say and a right to equal airtime with a teacher, and that probably stems from how they are dealt with at home.

You end up with telling a student to sit at a particular desk and instead of sitting at a particular desk they ask why, then they ask if they can sit at a different desk, then the complain and say little Johnny hasn't been asked to move and then they say they'll be good if they're allowed to stay in their original desk and why won't you just give them a chance and OH FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE JUST DO AS YOU ARE TOLD. This is becoming more common, IME.

So while it was put badly, I can see where she is coming from.

Why don't you turn the tables and ask him why he thinks? The answer is no.

This works with my dd and often ends any negotiations in there tracks as she can't pretend she isn't grasping the crucks of the matter.

Don't be disheartened - it's probably just that as he is making progress they don't want to relax and lose the momentum of what is benefiting him. And if his behaviour is improving in general, then it might just be more noticeable that certain aspects of it need more polish than others. It sounds like you are engaging with the help offered and making an effort to be consistent with the school, and that is important, so don't beat yourself up that they keep coming up with suggestions of things you can try - nobody gets everything bang on first time and a little fine tuning can go a long way!

well, for some criticising you for being articulate with your child, she could have done with being more articulate herself! I would be inclined to go back and ask her exactly what she meant. Without observing your parenting over time I'm not sure how she can confidently come to the conclusion she has (though that's not to say she's wrong).

Also, get your son referred to a paediatrician (via your GP), so they can properly rule out (or in) ADHD etc.

Recharging - he probably has low self esteem because I spend so much of the time that I am spending with him shouting because he's so naughty and disobedient!!

When I'm not shouting, I'm trying to get 2 minutes peace or when we finally have a time when we're having fun, he then starts being silly and the shouting happens again.

I used to take it one day at a time when he was a baby. Didn't sleep so well? Tomorrow night might be different. I hardly wen noticed him sleeping through because of my "tomorrow's another day" attitude. Then he started to be naughty at nursery and parents started saying DS had hurt their child etc and I began finding it harder to take it a day at a time. When he started at another nursery a couple of days a week alongside the first, they picked up on his behaviour and I used to dread picking him up, wondering what he could have done that day. The first nursery didn't ever mention there being a problem and I thought the second nursery were exaggerating.

When he started at school, he was getting shouted at by his teachers. Then I'd take him home and shout at him some more. I hated picking him up to get my daily rant from the teacher.

They never suggested anything helpful and I moved him.

The new school has been really supportive, and it's all helped a lot.

I jut feel like I'm really failing at this parenting lark. With a big, red F

There is also the other aspect of speaking to him like an adult that the head could be implying. Is it just you and him at home? I have noticed at times when it's just one parent and one child that sometimes a parent might speak to them and treat them more like an adult/friend.

Could of course be totally wrong in your case!

If a teacher has to explain every decision to every child then they would never have time to teach.

The HT wouldn't be having meetings with you if there weren't serious concerns about your DS's behaviour and it does sound like he is causing problems with the other children.

They aren't questioning your parenting for the fun of it but because it can be that children who are given a lot of free rein at home or treated like mini adult then find it very hard to adjust to being in school. They don't have the skills to be part of a class, do what the teacher has asked without lots of questions or understand the other children's actions. And if they are used to always getting what they want then it is hard for them to understand that other children may not want to do what they want.

My DS starts school this September. I often explain things to him and he will ask why a lot. But he understands that if I then say enough or tell him to do something, he needs to do it or there will be a consequence. You can have explanations when appropriate and still be in charge.

I have a friend who is firmly of the view that you never say "no" to a child or impose sanctions but just explain to them why they should behave in a certain way and let them make the right choice for themselves. This seems to translate into them doing exactly what they want. For example if it was a meal time and they didn't want to sit at the table and eat, friend would explain that it was a meal time, that someone had taken the trouble to cook and it was polite to sit down. But then if the DC chose to run about and not sit and eat it she would just let them. Do you do something similar? Because whilst explanations are great, sometimes the DC just need to do the whatever it is.

Don't be too despondent OP, 6 is very young, there is lots of time to get things on a more even keel.

It would be nice for you if you had some advice/ support from an expert (though MN is good in a lot of cases) to help turn this around as when you start changing things there will be reactions from DS which might be wearing to deal with at first.

Why not try the MN behavior thread here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development for some good advice.

Redsky - I purposefully try NOT to be like that. I have had to work hard to put boundaries in place for DS over the last couple of years, more so over the last 12 months. If he ignores me, which he often tries to do, I tell him "I have asked you to do .... Now come and do it."

If we are at home, and he continues arguing, he has to go an sit on the stairs until he is ready to do as he is told.

It's tricky. You should both be having a bit if fun. When things are going tits up at home, take a deep breath, and get outside and play tig. Get him to do stuff for you...brush your hair, pour you a glass of milk..and praise him for being so helpful. Loads of hugs, good routine at bedtime, when things go wrong address them and move on..no grudges or sulks. Sounds like you love him very much and don't want him to feel bad. Does anyone help you? Keep trying..you need each other and tomorrow is another day.