to ask why if you disapprove of porn

[katekong]

Besides the moral implications that many people in the porn industry are used/scared/mistreated/on drugs. If you disapprove of porn in a relationship, why so?

I'm on my third long-term relationship where I've discovered that my dp has a secret prolific porn habit. I've said at the beginning of each relationship that porn is ok as long as everyone's open and honest. Yet all three have kept it secret which makes it wrong and seedy in my opinion. Iccan't describe why it feels so wrong succinctly, so was hoping others could help me to articulate my feelings. If you disapprove of its use (separately) in relationships, why so? If not, why not?

I would say that "porn, sex and female sexuality" are absolutely not one single thing. In fact the opposite.
Pick any one of those things, apply it to the sentence. Next, pick one of the two remaining things and apply it to the sentence. Now, put the last thing in the appropriate part of the sentence. All three are relevant to my point, I just didn't want to type the bloody thing out three times.
You never did answer the question about gay porn, incidentally.

PBC, no it is not okay, obviously, to exploit people for any reason.

That doesn't explain why you are attempting to equate your desire to look at other people's naked bodies and/or watch them having sex with other people's need to eat.

These two situations are not analagous.

Sure they are. Both have laws that don't allow their workers to be exploited. Both have the potential to be unethical. The majority follow the set laws and guidelines.

I cannot know 100% for sure if an apple I'm eating was harvested by law abiding companies. I do not have to get an apple from the main grocery store, I could easily go to a farmers market and buy food that I know is 100% ethical. I don't (and neither do you) because I give those companies the benefit of the doubt.

You will not starve if you go out of your way a little to support local businesses. You are not stuck buying food you don't know the process to.

A minority of people are exploited and damaged because of what happens to them within marriage. Do you think we should do away with the institution or do you think we should reduce the instances of damage?
Also, it's an odd world when the experience of people who have done something themselves doesn't count as evidence of what that thing actually is.

Ninja, I don't know why it is. I would suggest that because of the smaller size of the gay community the amount of porn is smaller so where it has come from is more easy for people to know about and keep track of.

I would also suggest that because there are human rights abuses of gay people, it is easy to see how this could tie up with people ending up in exploitative situations in various countries due to lack of power. Gay activists are then going to be keen to point that out as a kind of homophobia, and other gay people are then going to want to look elsewhere.

That is much harder to do with straight porn because a lot of the viewers are male and a lot of those being viewed are female. If a particular porn company is exploiting women in a particular impoverished country to make that porn, it may fit in with various other human rights abuses looked at by women's groups, UNICEF etc. But the viewers are not overwhelmingly from that group (women), so don't see it as members of their own group possibly suffering.

Obviously there are other issues that come into play like porn with people from minority ethnic groups in it being more violent and aggressive, and made for a largely white audience. It feels like a loop - othered group - aggression in porn - lack of empathy created in viewer - lack of concern for ethics of the porn - further othering of the viewed group.

So I'd speculate that othering isn't there in gay porn just because the performer is gay. It would have to be added by racial stereotypes or similar.

Also good points, almond. I think that as a society the prevailing attitude is that sex is something done to women, rather than being something women do because they choose to and because they enjoy it.
This leads both to the aggression toward women in some mainstream porn, and ironically to the belief that all (or even most) women in the industry are being exploited.
The problem, if that is the case, is not with porn, porn is only a symptom. Which means that making the porn go away won't make the problem go away.

Ninja, yes, and it is impossible to make porn go away. The forms that porn take are both a symptom of abuses of power and a way of encouraging people to perputate that system. I think we have drifted away from the OP'squestion.

I think we have drifted away from the OP'squestion.
I think so, yes.

Anyway, it's 7:30am here and I've forgotten to go to bed again. That's the problem with being in the wrong time zone. I must get some sleep.

I don't and wouldn't use it for a couple of minor reasons, over and above the fact that I believe the majority of women (and to a lesser amount, men) are not in this 'line of work' voluntarily:

One is that DH sees it as cheating. He is very black and white on the issue (more so than I). He is open minded and into fantasy/role play etc, but only with me. As far as he is concerned if he were to have a wank watching or thinking about another woman then he would be cheating. He says I should feel the same - I don't completely agree with him, but understand why he feels that way and wouldn't purposely go against that.

The other issue for me is how unreal the sex is. Its too contrived, too rough, too full on and screamy. It gives an impossible 'standard' to reach whereas I think sex should be 'fun' as well as 'sexy'

I don't think that porn should be banned and I can't see how it could be banned. Partly because I don't think prohibition has ever worked, it just drives the activity (even further) underground. Also, I'm liberal and pro-choice when it comes to things like sex and drugs. I believe in transparency and legislation so that people's choices are informed and safer choices.

Sorry, to address the issues of apple-pickers and marriage. I don't see that because some people are exploited in picking apples or being married it means that it's ok for some people to be exploited and abused in porn. It's a very weak argument.

I have always been okay with my partners watching porn, although I'm not remotely interested in it myself.

However, I've started to revise that opinion and am getting less comfortable with it as I grow older. Besides the exploitative nature of the industry (which is a big factor), I think it normalises extreme sexual practices and can desensitise people to violent/degrading sex.

I look back and see how "normalised" the sex industry was. My dad left mags such as Viz in the bathroom during my childhood (thinking we were too young to see them?). My peers brought porn mags in to the sixth form common room at college. I have worked in more than one kind of job where sexual images of naked women were on display as a matter of course (red top newspapers in the staff room, calendars and posters in the garages etc). I worked in schools and teachers would talk about the lap dances they'd bought during stag weekends etc.

I just grew up thinking men used porn and if I had a problem with that or didn't want to use it myself, then I just wasn't mature or cool enough.

To go back to the OP's question, I don't really know if I'm against porn, I don't use it to know that much about it. However, I've worked with young people who have warped ideas of sex, thinking that it should be painful for them or that they should do certain things.

They rarely get the difference between sex and porn, and see them as interchangeable and non negotiable acts that you must do to please a partner. This is something I see affecting more young women than young men. I've also worked with young men who have suffered horrific homophobic abuse because they have refused to partake in the watching of porn on mobiles, tables etc.

I can't help but feel that porn is a destructive force in these young people's lives and gives an unrealistic view on what could be expected, and what consent needs to be provided.

Sorry, to address the issues of apple-pickers and marriage. I don't see that because some people are exploited in picking apples or being married it means that it's ok for some people to be exploited and abused in porn.

I think you've missed the point. No-one is saying exploitation is OK. Without checking back, I assume the argument was that the existence of exploitation (unquantified harm) is not by itself sufficient reason for opposing something.

BumpNGrind - I agree. I'm 41, the men my age grew up with porn that was totally soft-core compared to what can be seen today. I remember an ex showing me a porn video about 10 years ago, and it was something tame about a maid dusting the library and getting taken advantage of by the master of the house. Cheesy and tacky, but no suggestion of anything being non-consensual or humiliating or violent.

I've seen some of the stuff on the internet now, and...it's horrifying in comparison. Women being used as sperm receptacles, basically, and treated like animals, humiliated and hurt. Okay, it's not ALL like that, but there's a hell of a lot of it, and it's so accessible.

I am really scared for the young girls of today. Because yes, I know that all young men don't blindly go off and emulate what they see in porn. But watching things like that, over and over, does normalise them.

I’m beginning to wonder whether life has passed my by. I’m 61, and the only porn (if you can call it that) I’ve ever bought has been a few copies of Mayfair and the like in sixth-form days. I’m not proud of it but nor am I going to beat myself up about such follies of youth. AFAIK the women exposing their bodies to the camera were adults and were paid a fee.

But allow me a reminiscence. When DW and I were engaged, and we have been married thirty-five years, we baby-sat the DCs of a couple who had a film-projector, and I mean film, this was before even the VCR, and left us a film which they said was “hot”. Soft-core porn and dull as dogshit until I figured out that you could play it backwards. It was much more fun that way

Thousands of women are damaged by the porn industry every year. It's revolting. But the issue here is how it affects a private relationship, not the whys and wherefores of the sex industry.

I completely disapprove of it. Normalises violence and abuse.

I understand that porn exists and will continue to, but I totally disapprove of it and would not want to be in a relationship with someone who used it.
Firstly, I see looking at other naked people/people having sex as a form of infidelity. The mind is such a powerful thing. I do not want to look at other men and would be very upset to think my husband was looking at other naked women. It is a choice and people can choose not to do it. It is not right to say all men look at porn or need to.
Secondly, porn is obviously a horrible exploitative industry. Everyone who looks at it has some responsibility within that, whether they like it or not.
Finally, I am distraught when I think of the damage done to young people who are gaining their knowledge and expectations of sex from porn. Girls and boys expect each other to look a certain way and to behave sexually in the way they have seen in porn. This does not foster healthy relationships.

Koala says it for me. It's the preponderance of non-consensual, humiliating and violent scenarios in internet porn these days. I don't have a problem with the kind of porn you sometimes see labelled as "female friendly", this at least demonstrates some sensuality, tenderness and mutual enjoyment. But the vast, vast majority of porn is aggressive and riven with misogyny. Any man who has a porn habit will be watching the latter and it will inevitably distort his perception of women and what can arouse him sexually.

I feel most sorry for girls under 30 whose male compatriots have grown up immersed in porn culture.

I want my partner to be loyal to me in body and mind. Choosing to watch porn means he would not be loyal. And that is unacceptable in a relationship for me. I think far too many women tolerate their men looking at porn. They say it is a separate thing to their own sex lives, but I don't think it is and certainly has an affect. I see it quite simply as a pollutant and cannot see any good coming to a relationship of one person using it.
When my children are older I will be educating them about the dangers of porn and hoping that they will choose themselves not to look at it. It will be their choice of course and it will be hard to avoid in this day and age, but I believe it is possible.

And finally, too many women seem to think that porn is just a fact of life and a fact in their relationship.
It does not have to be a fact in your relationship. You are not obliged to accept your partner using it, or be made to feel like a prude for disliking it. It is fine and good to be clear if you dislike it (and why any women would want to see other women being a use and humiliated is beyond me....I don't actually believe many women do want to see that) and it is fine to be clear that you do not accept your man watching it, anymore than you accept them having an affair or behaving in other horrible ways.
As women, we can have enough self respect to say 'no' and expect our men to listen. And they are not some helpless creatures who are so subject to the ways of the world, that they need porn and cannot exist without it. This is a lie. They can choose to say 'no' to it and many men indeed do.
And if you are in a relationship where your OH uses porn regularly, it is still to too late to say something about it. Have a conversation about how it makes you feel, about how you feel it impacts your relationship and ask them to seriously consider stopping. It is like asking your OH to stop smoking or drinking too much. These are addictions for many. Research what you can do to help them give up...because it isn't easy. But be in it together.

Because (and I could be wrong) I dont believe a psychologically healthy young woman could allow herself to be treated I such a fashion in front of millions and millions of people.

This is sort of a pet subject for me. I consume a lt of erotica because I have a very high sex drive, using imagery to help reach a satisfying climax is perfectly natural. All the stuff I use is involves fictional human beings because even back before I codified my strong anti-porn views I could never separate the sex act onscreen from the idea that very few healthy people would choose this lifestyle.

Nina Hartley and Sasha Grey are two actresses who are very porn-positive, but they seem to be anomalies (Nina's a vibrant educated woman who loves what she does, but sasha seems very flat-effect and downbeat even when she's trying to promote her work).

Take two of the most recognisable stars, Linda Lovelace and Jenna Jameson. Linda had a troubled upbringing, was coerced into porn, reportedly at gunpoint, by her abusive husband, became an anti-porn activist but then had to go back when she hit rock bottom. Jenna was a similar story, with the awfulness of being gang-raped and nearly beaten to death as a young teen and a similarly abusive husband who talked her into it. Anyone who's experienced sexual abuse could empathise with the feeling of shame and low self-worth that could lead someone to think porn is a good option. Jenna stated multiple times that she'd never let her daughter go near the industry and yet she's back in herself, because getting a respectable career and life together after porn is nigh impossible.

Porn has an active death toll, deaths involving murder, suicide and drug overdoses, and that's jist from the regulated industry with accredited actors and actresses. Who knows what it's like for all the impoverished Eastern European girls who get dragged into it by traffickers, because that makes up an awful lot of the free to view stuff online.

I'm in my mid twenties and I truly believe that the porn industry is now so mainstream and accessible that the pressure on women to look a certain way is huge. To be pencil thin, beautifully tanned, glossy and gorgeous is just expected as standard. To be a rampant sex goddess is expected. But it goes both ways. I think men feel pressure to be fit, to be able to go for hours and have penises like donkeys. I've seen it cause insecurity and unhappiness and I disagree with porn for those unrealistic ideas is presents, not to mention the OP's points in her post.