to ask if you treat your sons and daughters equally... and, if not, why not?

[HelenHen]

I have ds (22 months) and Ds (2 months). I've promised. DD that I will treat her exactly the same as Ds. I then realised dh hasn't done the same and I've let him off the bloody hook (gonna rectify that though). He talks about how he's afraid to play rough with her like he did ds and a few other small things. Surely this is just beginning the sexist process at the earliest opportunity? I'm gonna have a word though!

So do all of you treat your sons the same as your daughters? And, if not, why the hell not?

Billy yep dd is 2 months and no, he's not planning in plating rough with her just yet. If you read the thread you'd know that

Interestingly dd has a gender neutral name! I wonder if that was subconscious on my part. I dress her in pink cos it suits her. She also wears blue and ds has some pink tshirts

Ziplex can you elaborate on how society emasculates men please?

In an ideal world, I'd have a son or tomboyish girl as a first child, just because I can relate to masculine traits far more than feminine ones.

That's a deeply unfashionable and un-PC view, but it's the truth. I don't know how I'd deal with a boy or girl who clings to their Barbies and insists on playing Princess. I'd have to adapt I suppose and encourage whatever he/she likes.

DP has the complete opposite view and wants a girly girl, but then he was brought up in a family with strict gender-specific roles and expectations.

Ziplock, it's not about NOT celebrating differences, it's about not assigning those differences to gender.

Everyone is different and should be recognised / celebrated as such, but aside from the physical there is very little difference at a population level between boys and girls. Even if there were it is still important to give them the same opportunities, don't you think?

OP, I think rough and tumble, encouraging independence and not treating kids as precious snowflakes is vital to the developing self-worth of all children, not just boys. Wrapping girls up in cotton wool denies them that.

All the DCs get different treatment because they are different people with different needs.

I am equally kind and supportive to each one, in whatever way they require.

Ziplek
If celebrating differences involve allocating stereotyped differences to each sex then that is a bad thing. If it means respecting each individual for who they are then that is a good thing.

I have 3 boys and in the middle 1 girl. They beat each other up with equanimity. No gender discrimination there.

The girl is the most sporty & did best at Judo. Generally very feisty & confident.

She is also more attractive to would be predators so I am more protective of her in subtle ways. So shoot me.

My DS and DD would not let me treat them the same. There is five years between them and they are completely different.

^But the are different and different is good.
Today we try to emasculate men and knock the femininity out of girls.
It's great to be different ... though we should be paid the same and have the same opportunities.^

What do you mean by that? Little boys do play with dolls when left to paly with dolls. Little girls do like legos and bricks. Society has dictated "feminine". The only thing truly female is having a vagina. Giving birth is obviously a feminine thing to do, wearing a tutu is not.

Wearing heels and make up and big wigs was fashionable for men in the past. It's literally just fashion.

But as a general rule really fed up women are weaker than men that's just biology.

Not really though. We give boys more difficult tasks form the beginning. We ask the boys in school to move furniture no matter the size of the girls. We give them pushups. We give the girls modified pushups.

I'm nearly 6 foot/size 18/size 10 shoe and I am strong as an ox. Some men are stronger than me, some men are weaker than me. There is no rule.

Ehhh I'm a feminist sahm! I didn't realise you can be one but not the other?

Only the very dim believe that the two are mutually exclusive.

I have twins - a boy and a girl - my very own test group .

When they were little it was very easy to ensure they had the same access to toys and activities which might be considered gendered.

DD has grown up very physically able and competent, compared to most of her female friends, even though she is the smallest. She is also a great enthusiast of some activities that might be considered male. DS appears to have co-opted absolutley no traits/hobbies etc which might be considered feminine.

Being twins, it's especially important that they receive equal treatment, thougn that doesn't mean the same treatment necessarily.

Hmm, both DSs have hobbies that might be considered more on the 'feminine' side here dance, flute, singing, art and at primary school, both had Best Friends who were girls.

DD, on the other hand, seems to think boys are a different species; gives up activities if there aren't enough other girls there; can't navigate her way out of a paper bag but neither can her mother and has absolutely no stereotypically male hobbies (well, she plays brass rather than woodwind, I suppose).

But as a general rule really fed up women are weaker than men that's just biology.

Also why is this relevant to the OP? Her husband is presumably not just beating the crap out of a 2 year old because he is male and can "take it". He is treating it as a 2 year old baby, "roughhousing" is tickling and throwing upside down.

I have B/G twins too. We tried to treat them the same but DD was a lot more helpful around the house than DS. Maybe I subconsciously let him off doing stuff.

When they were small they both loved Lego and both loved dresses although they are now 20 and thankfully DS no longer wears dresses .

I can't say that my DD is masculine in any way, although she is confident, but DS defo has a caring, feminine side despite being over 6ft tall and working as a builder.

I'm old and when/if I have a granddaughter I am so going to treat her like a special snowflake.
My own DD was reared to be an independent rhino by all the women's libbers going back generations on both sides. Frankly I would prefer the occcasional company of a melting snowflake in my dotage rather than the remote unsentimental hussy she is.

Reallyfuckingfedup absolutely, he's bot gonna be challenging them to arm wrestles while seeing who can lift the most weights

I have an older sister and a younger brother. My parents were VERY strict with my older sister and quite strict with me, and completely laissez-faire with my brother. I once said to my dad (as my brother headed out to town aged 16 "not sure when I'll be home" probably rolling in at 4 - compared to DSis and I who turned into pumpkins after midnight) "that is so totally unfair, you were so strict with us, it's just because he can't get pregnant" to which my dad replied "Correct". Not sure why they were so worried, parents were obviously vastly overestimating our attractiveness to the opposite sex! I was a clever clogs who scared boys away til I got to university, despite my best efforts...

Anyway apart from that I never ever felt treated differently on account of gender, my parents were very hot on all of us having degrees and careers and always had utter faith in us doing whatever we put our minds to. I've issues with my parents - their parenting style was a bit chaotic and it was a struggle at times - but as I come to have my own children I think they did pretty well on those counts and I'm grateful to them for that; giving your kids unconditional love and belief in themselves is a pretty good start I think.

Ziplex totally agree with your posts

I treat them differently because of their ages but not because of their gender. DD is at least as rufty tufty as DS.

gennz I never understood that mentality...if your ds get's someone else pregnant you're just as responsible and you can't put the buggers on the pill.. I think really it's more they don't mind the idea of their sons having sex compared to their daughters, more than fear of pregnancy.

Only the very dim believe that the two are mutually exclusive.

I see feminists on MN all the time who don't believe there should be SAHM's, even on this thread if you look back. Their everywhere, it's common. As a SAHM myself I notice it and have been been a victim to it.

How in the name of everything does the amorphous 'we' emasculate boys? And how do we turn girls into men? I mean, without surgery?

Equality of opportunity starts at home. If we teach our sons and daughters that everything is possible, by modelling that for them and allowing them the opportunity to try whatever they fancy, giving proper regard for safety etc, then that feeling of equality of opportunity will carry on into their adult lives, surely?

In some places in the world, a boy who habitually plays with 'girls' things, and doesn't conform to a narrow definition of performing masculinity can be forced to see themselves as being 'born into the wrong body' and given puberty blockers with a view to genital surgery to 'correct' the 'problem', the same goes for girls. Is this what you meant by emasculating boys and turning girls into men?

joysmum

I'm really sorry you have experienced that. I can't see any of the FWR feminists on this thread saying that you can't be a feminist and a SAHM. The feminists I know would suggest that you should have your contributions recognised in the same way as WOHM's are. The work you do is unsung and unpaid, but just as important.

Which feminists said women can't be sahp?

As a feminist sahp I would happily tell them they are talking bollocks

Yes I treat them differently - they are not identical people. Ds is very sensitive whilst dd is very confident and self assured hence they need different approaches. Nothing to do with their gender though

See, I'm a feminist and most of my mother-peers are. No, actually they all.are, we all talk about it. Anyway, I was out with three other mums - me and my DS and DD (though DD is a baby), one mum with two DSs and two mums with one DD each. We decided to eat on the way home and took our bunch of tired preschoolers to somewhere we could sit outside, really to minimise the damage/ destruction potential which is quite high with six tired preschoolers. Right from the start it was quite chaotic but what I really noticed is that the two mums of girls were way more remonstrative, way more.authoritative in relation to what I and the mum of two boys thought quite minor infractions - e.g., I'm okay with mine messing with the salt cellar within reason but the girls' mum's didn't even allow that.

I've read the (vile) SMOG threads, hell, I've read Cordelia Fine, (and de Beauvoir, and Greer, and Irigary, and Cicoux, Butler, Young... etc). And I really thought I had a heads up on this. And that my smart, well.read, feminist friends had it covered. Bit it did.look an awful lot to me like we were right then and there expecting better behaviour from our girls than our boys.

It's insidious isn't it? I know I have to check myself nearly every fucking time from commenting on friends' daughters' appearances. It sounds OP, like your DH is checking himself in a similar way - I mean, at least he noticed. But I'm not so very sure that giving DS a doll or pointing out diggers to DD is going to solve this one.