to think the 'common law/freeman on the land' thing is a whole load of bollocks?

[qwertypop]

I've come across a few people over the last few years that take it very seriously and bang on at length about how the police and courts have no authority over them as they are self declared 'freemen'. Something to do with common law being the only true law in Britain, I think? And not having to wear bike helmets or pay for TV licenses or repay your debts also seem important to the ones I've had the dubious pleasure of meeting.

A couple I met at the weekend have taken the biscuit though and not registered their baby's birth because apparently this will mean said baby grows up to be a 'freeman' (she's actually a girl but the term appears to be freeman anyway). They believe quite firmly that to register her birth will mean that the law assumes her and her name (which is a fucking corker, of course) are one and the same and that only by NOT registering her birth can she be free to be a human being. Quite what this actually means is a mystery to me and tbh the mumbo jumbo they gave me by way of an answer leads me to suspect they don't really know either

I've tried to read up on it but all the info I can find is written in a style you'd expect of an paranoid, delusional, and possibly hallucinating chimpanzee let loose with a legal dictionary.

So AIBU to think this is bollocky woo of the most fucking ridiculous type? Or is someone going to come along and actually enlighten me as to wtf its all about, preferably in plain English with no pseudo-legalese?

NatashaGurdin The Magna Carta was really important in the principle that the law applied to everyone. Previously English kings could do what they liked, afterwards they were forced by a series of civil wars and long minorities when the king was a child to accept that they king ruled according to law and was subject to it.

The trouble is, a lot has happened in the last eight hundred years. It was used as a rallying cry by a lot of people including those of the French Revolution and the American Revolution. It was losing relevance then, but a huge mythological significance got attached. I read somewhere (can't remember where, but can believe it) that the Forest Charter, which was issued around the same time, was much more significant to the people at the time because it dealt with abuses that affected the peasantry. The linky to the Wiki article is here

I suppose the way I see it is that the Spinning Jenny was a massive step forward in the Industrial Revolution and changed forever the production of textiles but you don't see many of them being used in mills today.

Can this be nominated as a classic thread? For it's educational/amusement value if nothing else.

Just nominated it.

btw my view point is someone who reads University standard history textbooks for fun and worked at the County Court years ago at a grade one step above filing. I am not qualified in anything but I have a reasonable grasp of legal history and I am seriously considering pulling together a cut&paste history of the legal system in England & Wales (as much as I can research) to be used when some poor soul is on the receiving end of this sort of rubbish in the Family Courts.

ime judges can take care of themselves in a court room but this freeman of the land stuff is made for those who are inadequate in so many ways, want to feel they have special knowledge and are not going to have someone tell them what to do with the children they are connected with. Apart from anything else, it can work against them and end up with the worst result all round.

That link is interesting LisaMed thank you. Also how did maritime law get into the mix? I know the British Isles are an island but still ...

My partner works for the police; I was thinking of asking him if they get any guidance for dealing with people who use this form of defence.

Also very true about the Spinning Jenny, an important part of the Industrial Revolution but superseded by other important steps along the way.

This thread is just amazing. I'd never heard of any of this bollocks stuff before. Every day is a school day in MN

NatashaGurdin I have no idea why they seem to think that all the stuff that is Statute is somehow under the Admiralty Court. I haven't got any idea why. I may try and look into it, when I have the time and need a laugh.

Earlier in the thread there was a link where it covered how the Canadian legal system was dealing with the whole 'freeman on the land' delusion in a systematic and measured way but I don't know if there is anything like that over here. I am sure it would be useful.

It also pointed out that those who are really, really, really keen on this are the ones selling the idea to those who are using it in court. They use the arcane language and layout to impress those who will rely on it when it may do more damage than good.

I think that's a good idea LisaMed!

Might be worth some entertainment value if nothing else!

I think it can be amusing if you don't take it seriously but it has a negative side in that vulnerable people might be taken in by them.

The Magna Carta was really important in the principle that the law applied to everyone ... The trouble is, a lot has happened in the last eight hundred years.

It's like suing Apple because they provided you with a phone that doesn't have a rotatable mechanical dial on the front.

This thread is awesome. I have spent the last half hour ignoring my work and staring transfixed at my screen, absent-mindedly shoving Rich Tea Finger Creams into my mouth.

Do you think it should go into Classics? It has everything, from the sublime to the ridiculous.

I salute you all.

Rich Tea Finger Creams?

Yes indeed, Goring

I live off the grid, so I send a drone to steal them from the local Tesco Express.

The police don't get any form of training for people like this because luckily they're quite rare. If you watch the youtube videos its mainly officers getting talked over and not being allowed to get a word in edge ways. This coupled with being a bit hazy with legislation often ends in freemen "victories." In reality it was just the officer was going to have a quiet word and so cant be arsed to continue the argument. If they were doing something arrest worthy they'd be coming in regardless, note their complete lack of videos in that respect!

Lisa- have you read Hudsons book on the formation of common law? Very interesting

I thought I had done all the laughing at this thread that was possible intil I read this:

fairnotfair Tue 20-Jan-15 11:24:35

Yes indeed, Goring smile

I live off the grid, so I send a drone to steal them from the local Tesco Express.

That has quite literally made my day

Mavericklovesgoose oooooh never heard of it, looked on Amazon, bought it, wished I could afford some of the other titles in the 'also bought' section. I suspect that this will lead me in expensive book-buying ways - thank you!

I can cope with people misquoting law but I get a bit tetchy when people mess with history.

Its very heavy going! I have to read it in small sections with the internet on to google bits (most of it!) that I struggle to understand:)

My main issue with the freeman nonsense, apart from their complete bastardization of history, is the way it's sold as a debt solution to people who are very much in the financial shit. Well that and how they completely contradict themselves at every turn.

I would love to meet one to ask if all statutes don't apply to them or just the ones they pick

I subscribe to the 1066 and All That interpretation of Magna Carta:
"By congregating there, armed to the teeth, the Barons compelled John to sign the Magna Charter, which said:
1.That no one was to be put to death, save for some reason—(except the Common People).
2.That everyone should be free—(except the Common People).
3.That everything should be of the same weight and measure throughout the Realm—(except the Common People)."

Thank you, Bitoutof. I'll send my drone over with a Finger Cream for you.

LisaMed

I can't stand it when they get historical details wrong. So much so that I can't watch programmes like say 'The Tudors' which is a time period I'm interested in because I read that they merged characters together and generally didn't stick to the known historical facts (about anything!).

One reason given for this was that it was because for example there were two Mary Tudors (aunt and niece) and that viewers would get confused so they merged the elder Mary with her older sister Margaret Tudor, both of whom were significant in the subsequent claims to the throne after Henry XVIII died having decided that both his daughters were legitimate heirs after their half brother even though his marriages to their mothers could not both be legal.

It was enough to put me off even trying to watch it.

Ahem, fairnotfit, I think you'll find I should be first in line for an off-the-grid, Rich Tea Finger Cream mercy drone delivery.

This thread is the reason my floors remain un-cleaned and my ironing remains un-ironed this morning but I've loved it too.

Is that according to statute or natural law, Goring?

Goring, my overconsumption of Rich Tea Finger Creams whilst MNetting is the reason why I am neither fair nor fit (I'm actually fairnotfair, but your alternative name is utterly perfect, so I'm going to nab it sharpish).

You will receive your Finger Cream shortly. Please send the drone straight back, as it has to run an errand for me robbing Argos

... and behold the namechange.

I am indebted to you, Goring.

You can't hold me to it, though.