To think this mother needs to sort her issues out?

[FreckledLeopard]

There is a girl in DD's class (they're all in Year 8, so aged 12/13). The girl is in DD's group of friends. She is a sweet girl.

This girl (I will call her Sophie for sake of anonymity) recently turned 13. Aside from taking some cakes into school, she had no party or any kind of celebration as the mother said she couldn't afford to. I should probably add here that the school they all attend is private, so the mother must pay some school fees (though could, of course, have a substantial bursary. I don't know).

The girl lives with her mother and brother. The father (parents are divorced) lives abroad and doesn't seem to see much of his children at all. The brother is 21 and lives at home.

I've met the mother on a couple of occasions and she is odd. Very odd. Very fussy, very nervy, can't make normal chit chat. She is also seemingly obsessively grateful if her daughter is invited to anything (and given the amount that 13 year old girls socialise, it's a bit odd that she's so gushing and grateful anytime her daughter is invited anywhere).

Anyway, DD and her friends thought that as Sophie hadn't had any kind of celebration, they'd arrange a sleepover this half-term, invite Sophie, and make it a little surprise party with cakes and gifts. DD checked that Sophie was free, all the friends have been planning the party (fancy dress, food, attendees, music, presents etc).

Then, DD hears from Sophie (who is very upset) - her mother has said Sophie can't come as Sophie's older brother is out that night and the mother won't stay at her house on her own. She is too scared. Let me point out that they live in suburbia of a normal town (not known for gangs, violence or anything to be scared of). I called the mother (at DD's request) to explain that the girls had organised this surprise party which is why they really wanted Sophie to come. The mother told me she was sorry but was too scared to be at home on her own, so her daughter couldn't come to the party.

Sophie is of course massively upset (she didn't know about the party, but obviously wanted to see her friends). DD is upset. The friends are upset. There are no other dates that can be organised for half term.

Now, I understand people might have anxiety of some kind. But this woman is basically turning her children into her carers. God knows what happens if either the older brother of Sophie want to go to university, or, God forbid, leave home.

I've just had a text from the mother confirming that Sophie can't come. I'm sitting on my hands to stop myself from typing back that she needs to sort out her issues and not make her children suffer as a result.

AIBU in thinking this is massively unfair on the kids and will royally fuck up their lives? I obviously can't do much about it other than fume. But honestly - surely the mother should seek some help rather than making her kids suffer?

Who needs doctors and stuff when we have people on MN who can dx at a distance. All they need is a half a paragraph of heresy.

Not only can they dx serious illness they can also do a risk assessment for emotional abuse.

Someone let the family courts now they can have a holiday. All is under control here on MN.

Not heresy obviously

although I expect they could sort that out too.

I think the disabled parents of mumsnet are taking care of themselves, seeing doctors when they need to. Honestly, I think most of them would be horrified at the suggestion that their children take care of them.

What evidence do you have to make you think this woman isnt doing all she can to get help? It doesnt happen instantly you know.

The test is this: If their children didn't exist, would they be able to function on their own in their current situation? If the answer is no, the children are their caretakers and shouldn't be in that situation. Not saying remove the kids, but they do need extra outside help and as the adult they are responsible for getting that for themselves. Children are not there for their parent's benefit, the parents are there for their children's benefit.

to all those wittering on about 'no harm done' by calling in SS because this child's motehr has stopped her attending ONE sleepover, it causes immense harm. My neighbour complained about us on the grounds that my autistic ds was shouting a lot in the garden and banging on his fence. I have never got over it; I was absolutely mortified to have ss asking my children's school if they had any concerns. There were none but it has left a paper trace and it still upsets me to this day. The reaction to this thread is ridiculous, this child is not socially isolated, she obviously attends lots of other social events including sleepovers, she just can't attend this one and we have all this hysteria about mental health and young carers. GET A GRIP

Freckled Leopard, I am so glad people like you exist. I wish I had someone like you to intervene on my behalf when I was a teenager living in similar circumstances with very high maintenance parents who I was woefully under-equipped to deal with - at 13 I was doing more parenting of my 50 yr old mum and dad than they were of me.

I urge you to report this to social services.

If it's a one-off thing with no deeper rooted issues, then the case will be dropped and you will be informed all is well, but you have your doubts about the welfare of a teenage girl and it is your duty to do something about it. I so so so wish someone had done something like this for me.

I had a couple of friends whose mums did have me over to theirs for a break of a night or two when things got too much at home, and those friends mums did absolutely support me in many (very many!) other small ways, and not for one second am I ungrateful for the emotional and practical help they did give, but if there was one extra thing they could have done for me, I would have to say it would have been been getting social services involved.

I have in my adult life spoken at great length with two of my school friends mums who did a lot to support me back then. They told me they had strong notions and loads of suspicions that all was not well in my household, but they had no idea how bad it really was till I told them the full story in my 30s. Knowing how much I held back at that age ( I was brought up to play it all down and make out like everything was fine, that I was fine, that my parents were fine, that was instilled in me from a very young age) .... if I ever have even the tiniest doubt in mind of any kind of child-abuse or neglect, I will always inform social services.

From the outside looking in on families with MH issues, it's often an iceberg-effect the outside world gets to see. The 25% on show doesn't look that bad, but it's the 75% under the surface that's the real killer.

Please call social services and explain your worries.

No-one in a family is there for anyone's 'benefit'. What kind of outside help is it that you think is so readily available, just by asking nicely?

Again - all immaterial as there's still no evidence Sophie is a carer.

In theory the sentiment 'don't burden your children with your problems' is fine, but in practice when you are a family unit it is almost impossible to stop one person's problem from affecting the others in one way or another.

If the mother cannot ever be left at home alone at night without one of her children then that is a big problem and one which, sooner or later, she will have to address. Perhaps she is already addressing it. Perhaps her anxiety about being left alone is not constant and she is having a particularly bad week. You mention that Sophie has been to sleepovers in the past so if this is the first incident in which it has stopped Sophie from doing something hopefully that means it isn't having a massively huge impact on Sophie.

Hopefully the mother knows that this isn't right and that things need to change, but unfortunately when it comes to fear/anxiety it is not as simple as just saying 'get over it.' My parents are both terrified of heights and that stopped us from doing some things when I was a child. I remember desperately wanting to go on a cable car on holiday and not being allowed which caused a massive tantrum from me and my brother. I also really wanted to go on the London Eye as a teen but again the answer was no. My parents didn't like having to say no to their children but they were too scared to do those things with us and couldn't just get over it.

It really is sad that Sophie isn't being allowed to this sleepover, especially considering it was organised as a surprise party for her, and it is unfair on Sophie. It is also unfair on her mother that she has this anxiety about being home alone. If this is a chronic problem and one which is likely to effect her children's ability to go out and do things in the future (and not just a one off) hopefully this may be a catalyst to prompt the mother to get help (if she isn't already doing so) but it is simplistic to expect her to just get over it or get a carer in. I'm sure if the solution was that simple she would have done it already but mental health is a complex area and unfortunately in a lot of places the support available to people with MH conditions is limited. I certainly don't think there are many areas in which the help available would stretch to providing a support worker to an adult in order to enable her daughter to go to a sleepover.

I have a problem with my spine and hips. Sometimes it will go into spasm and i wont be able to get up from a lying position. As a single parent this sometimes means my 8 year old doing things like feeding the pets, getting himself and his brother changed for bed, brushing teeth and going up to bed. He also brings me pain killers and water, will make breakfast for us all and lunch if necessary. He can help me to a sitting position and to the bathroom (but leaves me to my business). There are probably loads more things he does that i cant think of right now.

My back issue is a sporadic thing so no permanent support required but on the occasions it flares up i need my son to help me. If he didnt i would be on the sofa in increasing pain and become dehydrated and hungry.

For all we know this woman's issue could be a rare relapse in her mental well being. It could have been an out of the blue incident that triggered it and may not happen again for several years. No-one here knows.

I think the OP would deserve a pasting if she had actually DONE anything. But she hasn't....she has just vented on an anonymous website and sought advice.

So, people, be a bit more kind. She is showing concern for a young teenager. I have a daughter of the same age and her friends are very, very important to her. She finds being invited to something takes over her brain and she can't wait.

How terribly sad to have any plans changed for any reason, particularly when it seems to be the ADULT brother who is being accommodated with his new plans, before the teenager with her existing plans.

Cansu social services involvement is for the benefit of the child, not reporting something of concern because it might upset the parent is very very wrong.

What evidence do you have to make you think this woman isnt doing all she can to get help?

She might be, and if you read my earlier posts I did say patience and understanding were in order.

Ideal situation, she slipped up, realizes she needs better anti-anxiety meds whatever and is talking to a doctor as we speak.

But seeing as how she's very dependent on Sophie's brother, even if she is getting help, her kids shouldn't be her training wheels. Her adult brother is one thing, he can leave when he wants to, a 13 year old who is trapped and needs permission is another.

But this is all speculation. The most you can do is just let someone know so that if Sophie does need outside help she can get it. At least give her a lifeline if she needs. I don't know how UK schools work, but in ours we had counselors kids could talk to at any time. They might be able to just pull her aside ask her if everything is ok, and if she's in a grey area with her homelife she can talk to them about it and get it off her chest. Then if she tells the school red flags they can go through the proper channels. I don't understand why everyone is so defensive about letting someone who can help her out know to keep an eye on her.

I see far more kids stuck in shitty situations because people are afraid to speak up, than kids that are pulled from good families.

What evidence do you have to make you think this woman isnt doing all she can to get help? It doesnt happen instantly you know.

She doesn't need evidence. Social services investigate, if there is no issue then it's dropped. Christ almighty, if I have doubts that a child is being sexually abused to I have to see fucking video evidence before I report my doubts to ss? of course not. Well it's the bloody same for any type of abuse. If we suspect it's happening to children, it's our bloody duty to report it.

I lived a shite early childhood, and the years between being 12yrs old and getting the hell out when I was 18 were totally horrendous. Plenty of family members, neighbours, parents of school friends, friends of my mum and dads, even a few school teachers and a minister from the local church all had their doubts about how bad things really were in our house. But none of them contacted social services because they didn't have any evidence.

When a kid's well being could be at stake, fuck the evidence and call social services, if it's there they will find it, if not, no harm done. It will always be better to err on the side of caution where children are involved.

melted report what to social services exactly?

The facts? I doubt they would raise any concerns.
Or the made up stuff on here? That would definately have SS knocking on the door.

But is it right that made up stuff is reported to SS?
Isn't that deemed as malicious reporting and doesn't it waste a hell of a lot of time and money as well as causing enormous distress?

definitely

melted report what to social services exactly?

her doubts and worries that the child is (or may be) functioning in the role of a carer to the mother and might be suffering emotionally because of that.

But is it right that made up stuff is reported to SS?

She would not be reporting made up stuff. She would be reporting a situation she has witnessed that has rang alarm bells for her.

You do see that difference, right ? The difference between maliciously reporting for no reason, and ringing an alarm bell because their could be problems?

Op could report exactly what has happened, that the mother is refusing to let her child go to a social event that was previously ok as the mother can't be alone.

If there have been previous issues ss will already know about the family, maybe a few other people have had concerns and gave reported their concerns which possibly as individual reports are not enough to warrant an investigation but grouped together cause a worry.

If op tells the truth, no speculation or irrelevant information then either they will keep in information on file or investigate, ss are after all the professionals, we should trust them with information rather than trying to do anything yourself.

The facts? I doubt they would raise any concerns.

A text saying she was too afraid to stay home alone without her daughter there is both factual solid evidence. SS could decide if it was concerning.

Sorry that some people got "traumatized" by SS investigating. But in reality, it's stressful, but not a life altering event. It's just not. I'd rather a good parent get a little stressed out for a week or so than leave a child in a harmful situation. Adults will cope with stress. Children will not cope with abuse.

I do take the point on a general level that it is for SS to find evidence, rather than a concerned onlooker waiting for video proof.

But wtaf would a social worker do about a 13 yo not being allowed to go to a sleepover? It actually doesn't matter what the reason is. A 13 yo who is normally allowed to go to sleepovers isn't allowed to go to this one sleepover. There is nothing in that fact which would warrant any kind of SS intervention.

Actually, I'll amend that - I would hope there's nothing in that fact which would warrant any intervention because I fully intend to be across DS social life when he's 13 and if I'm not comfortable with him going to a sleepover, party, concert, football match or anything, he won't be going.

How do you know Sophie was not burdened? She was extremely upset about not being able to join her friends for the sleepover. What sort of life are these children going to have if they have to stay with their mother al, of the time? Can they get a job, or have relationships? Or go out with friends. Yes you still have to put the needs of your child first! I have gad MH issues first and my mum has MH issues.

But wtaf would a social worker do about a 13 yo not being allowed to go to a sleepover?

It's not the sleep over, it's the reason. She could have given any other reason and it would have been ok. "Sophie can't come because I say so" "We have plans" "I don't know the parents and am uncomfortable". All acceptable and normal reasons.

"I'm too afraid to stay home alone without my daughter" is a not a normal reason to stop your child from doing something.

But she not with her mother all of the time. She has attended sleepovers before, just not this time.

A 13 year old eing extremely upset at not being allowed to a sleepover is nothing new. It is afterall the end of the world when you're friends are doing something you arent allowed to. Her reaction tells us nothing.

Crumbs this thread has got ridiculously hysterical!!

All the op knows is that Sophie is no longer allowed to go to a sleepover because mum doesn't want to be alone.

NOTHING else is known and is just guess work and scaremongering. As many people have pointed out there are many non mh reasons why this could be that could be both long or short term issues.

The op and very many other people have blown this massively out of proportion and I think everyone needs to step away and calm down!