To think this mother needs to sort her issues out?

[FreckledLeopard]

There is a girl in DD's class (they're all in Year 8, so aged 12/13). The girl is in DD's group of friends. She is a sweet girl.

This girl (I will call her Sophie for sake of anonymity) recently turned 13. Aside from taking some cakes into school, she had no party or any kind of celebration as the mother said she couldn't afford to. I should probably add here that the school they all attend is private, so the mother must pay some school fees (though could, of course, have a substantial bursary. I don't know).

The girl lives with her mother and brother. The father (parents are divorced) lives abroad and doesn't seem to see much of his children at all. The brother is 21 and lives at home.

I've met the mother on a couple of occasions and she is odd. Very odd. Very fussy, very nervy, can't make normal chit chat. She is also seemingly obsessively grateful if her daughter is invited to anything (and given the amount that 13 year old girls socialise, it's a bit odd that she's so gushing and grateful anytime her daughter is invited anywhere).

Anyway, DD and her friends thought that as Sophie hadn't had any kind of celebration, they'd arrange a sleepover this half-term, invite Sophie, and make it a little surprise party with cakes and gifts. DD checked that Sophie was free, all the friends have been planning the party (fancy dress, food, attendees, music, presents etc).

Then, DD hears from Sophie (who is very upset) - her mother has said Sophie can't come as Sophie's older brother is out that night and the mother won't stay at her house on her own. She is too scared. Let me point out that they live in suburbia of a normal town (not known for gangs, violence or anything to be scared of). I called the mother (at DD's request) to explain that the girls had organised this surprise party which is why they really wanted Sophie to come. The mother told me she was sorry but was too scared to be at home on her own, so her daughter couldn't come to the party.

Sophie is of course massively upset (she didn't know about the party, but obviously wanted to see her friends). DD is upset. The friends are upset. There are no other dates that can be organised for half term.

Now, I understand people might have anxiety of some kind. But this woman is basically turning her children into her carers. God knows what happens if either the older brother of Sophie want to go to university, or, God forbid, leave home.

I've just had a text from the mother confirming that Sophie can't come. I'm sitting on my hands to stop myself from typing back that she needs to sort out her issues and not make her children suffer as a result.

AIBU in thinking this is massively unfair on the kids and will royally fuck up their lives? I obviously can't do much about it other than fume. But honestly - surely the mother should seek some help rather than making her kids suffer?

You are still wrong and basing it on a sample of erm, one. You have no idea of the data collated nor the team I worked in. You are wrong. Most people with MH cause no harm to anyone but themselves. Go and educate yourself before making ridiculous sweeping statements like that.

How could you possibly get data from parents with MH issues that aren't getting diagnosed and treated? If they aren't diagnosed they aren't on the radar. If they aren't diagnosed they aren't getting treatment. By the time they do get treatment the damage is done.

There's a difference between a parent that is diagnosed and getting help, and one that is not. That difference is huge. Parents that are getting help and managing their condition will generally make good parents. Parents that are not managing their conditions or unaware of their conditions really don't make the best parents.

Perhaps you should read about how undiagnosed MH issues have wreaked havoc on marriages. Something like depression going undiagnosed has ripped up marriages until the partner got a diagnosis, and when they got the help they managed to patch things up. If it's causing that much havoc with the partners who are equal adults, what do you think it's doing to the children?

I have yet to meet a person that got a diagnosis because all was fine with their work and family. If it isn't causing a problem in at least 2 areas of your life, it's not an illness. If it is causing problems and therefore needing a diagnosis to get treatment, I can't imagine that the people closest to them weren't affected in a negative way.

That doesn't mean parents MH are bad, it means parents with untreated MH are bad parents.

Just to add, I'd no more likely go on the stately homes thread and make a throwaway comment than I would go on the MH board on MUMSnet and announce that I thought many of them were bad parents. There is no truth and no evidence that MH problems make you a bad parent. Bad parents come in all shapes and sizes. Yes, X's mum may have been shit because she had a mental illness but MH alone is not linked in with bad parenting.

I am/was the child of a parent with MH problems. My parent was abused as a child and has suffered terrible anxiety all her life. It did and does still affect me and upset me to see her struggle with her demons, although she has finally been able to access NHS help. My mum was and still is the most wonderful mother who sadly did not grow up knowing love but she damn well sure knew how to parent. Her parents did not have a mental illness, they were just cruel.

I'm stepping out of this now because it is getting to me and I'm not even a parent, let alone one who is vulnerable with MH needs!

I've been a carer as long as I can remember, with two disabled parents. My mother also has MH issues.

I don't resent it in the slightest. We were a great family and we did what great families do - pull together and take the slack for each other when needed.

If someone had called SS about our situation they'd have felt the rough-edge of my tongue. (My dad had an adult SW anyway because of the alterations needed to our home).

Not all young-carers are resentful. I'm in my 30s now and still do all evening/weekend care for my mother (Dad sadly died a while ago). I have a degree, post-grad qualification and a full-time job. I'm fulfilled in every way.

Nobody has any real idea about Sophie's situation other than a 13 year-old is upset she has been told no. I'd say that qualifies her as fairly 'normal'.

P.S. NPD affects ONE percent of the population, whereas more common MH diagnoses affect 1/4 of adults at any point. NPD is very different to anxiety/depression and other common MH conditions too. It's like comparing a sprained finger with a shattered femur

NPD, as all the other personality disorders are mental health disorders as defined by the DSM, if you chose to dismiss them out of hand in favour of something like anxiety or depression that sufferers are more like to seek treatment for, that’s your prerogative.

I find it very insulting to people with PDs that you compare their MH issues as minor (sprained finger?) when compared to something more real like anxiety/depression (shattered femur?). Yes, empathy and knowledge indeed.

Personality disorders are very real, and very prevalent, and can be very damaging to those suffering from them as well as those close to people suffering from them.

And as for your statistics, again, just pop over the to the stately homes threads, and see how many of the narc (other PD?) parents on that thread (those threads) have an actual diagnosis. The vast majority are undiagnosed and untreated, so forgive me if I take you statistics with a bucket pinch of salt.

This article explains it far better than I can, especially the very first sentence.

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

The majority of people with a personality disorder never come into contact with mental health services, and those who do usually do so in the context of another psychiatric disorder or at a time of personal crisis, for example, after harming themselves or committing a criminal offence. Nevertheless, personality disorders are important to psychiatrists and physicians in general because they predispose to mental disorders and affect the presentation and treatment of mental disorders that are already present. They also (by definition) result in considerable distress and impairment, and may therefore need to be addressed ‘in their own right’

I've been a carer as long as I can remember, with two disabled parents. My mother also has MH issues.
I don't resent it in the slightest. We were a great family and we did what great families do - pull together and take the slack for each other when needed.

I am guessing here though that your parent wasn’t abusive or damaging to your psychological well-being I any way? I think that makes the world of difference. And it also sounds a two way street in your family, as it should be, child supports parent when needed, parent supports child when needed. If only that was how it always was then there would be no need for a thread like this.

I'm stepping out of this now because it is getting to me and I'm not even a parent, let alone one who is vulnerable with MH needs!

If it makes you feel better I say that as a parent with a GAD (generalized anxiety disorder). If I was not getting treatment, I would not be a good parent for my child. I can't imagine being able to focus on my daughter and be there for her like I should be if I'm constantly focused on the source of my anxiety. I've gotten treatment so that I can set my anxiety aside and put her needs first and foremost when making a decision for her.

I don't understand how someone with untreated depression can make a good parent when they are incapable of being there emotionally for their child. Depression/anxiety forces you into a box where you can't see outside yourself while you're sick. That's not an ideal parent.

When my mother got therapy and finally got diagnosed, she was a completely different person. It took us years to patch our relationship back up because of the havoc ptsd caused in our family. Don't get me wrong, I love her and she did her best growing up. Most times she was a good mother, but there were alot of days as a child when I didn't know if I was going to get her or the ptsd whenever a situation came up. But she would have been a better mother if she got treated sooner.

There is no truth and no evidence that MH problems make you a bad parent. Bad parents come in all shapes and sizes. Yes, X's mum may have been shit because she had a mental illness but MH alone is not linked in with bad parenting

If you want to play it that way, fine. Then I hit back with: There is no truth and no evidence that people with MH issues only hurt themselves, they often make terrible parents who hurt and damage their children.

I too have GAD and receive no treatment or medication for it although my Gp's are fully aware as is my hv. I am a very good mum to my baby and step mum to my partner's older children thank you.

And I will again make the point that you are all making huge assumptions based on your own projection of your crappy childhoods. The child in the op has been told no to ONE sleepover nit her whole social life and actually none of you know anything other than the om's twisted snobbery and bitching about the reasons so give it up and stop making a mountain out of a flaming molehill

Bad parents are bad parents. You can be a wonderful parent with or without MH problems. You can be a bad parent with or without MH parents.

MeltedLolly without knowing anything about your situation other than what you have posted here, you had bad parents. It doesn't automatically follow that had they not had MH issues they would have been great parents.

Perhaps we should all be wary of making sweeping assumptions about others. I have been blessed to have been able to care for my parents, they are my family and I love them. I am well able to believe that my situation isn't everyone's situation, but some others on here seem to be struggling to believe that not all young-carers resent their role. On the topic of the thread, though, we have no evidence to prove that Sophie is a young carer, and I think many of us have made inferences based on our own experiences.

AndreasV, I am not using ONLY my experience with my parents to reach my conclusion. I am using a whole life time’s worth of life experience.

Maybe because like attracts like, or people only confide in others who have "been there done that", I know a lot of other people who grew up in shitty homes situations with parents with MH issues. People who suffer to this very day because of what their parents put them through as children. I am looking around me at various people with MH issues, neighbours, friends, siblings, other family members, colleagues, posters on MN, and deducing that a lot of people with MH issues don’t make good parents.

That bad parents also come with a clean bill of mental health, yes that is a given. I never at any time said ONLY people with MH issues make bad parents.

You are seeing things through the prism of your experience, though, as we all do.

You are seeing things through the prism of your experience, though, as we all do.

Of course I am, you are, we all are. That’s why when presented like a situation like Sophie’s you think it’s all perfectly normal and would be an outrage deserving of a severe tongue lashing to call ss. I see it through my eyes and think “well, I have no real idea if anything bad is happening or not, but it can’t hurt to call ss and have them make a note of it, or look into if they think it warrants that. I wish one of the many adults with slight concerns about my sibs and I had done just that for us”.

I don’t find the differences in our perspectives surprising at all. You grew up in a home with a loving parent with MH issues, I grew up in a home with abusive parents with MH issues, whose abuse spiraled upwards in direct correlation to their mental health spiraling downwards.

I don’t expect people who haven’t experienced abuse at the hands of parents with MH issues to have the same “radar” that people like me have. But I also don’t expect them to dismiss that “sixth-sense” out of hand either.

We will have to agree to disagree, MeltedLolly.

Abusive parents are abusive parents to me. Mental health or no. This girl is missing one sleepover. If people really think SS have the time to get involved in this then they are kidding themselves.

so the upshot is that there are some shit parents in the world

some have mental health problems
some don't
I know which get my empathy

I'd suggest that all of those projecting their own negative experiences of childhood onto others might want to seek some help to help them work through their issues and keep things in perspective

the damage that threads like this do to parents with mental health issues is massive and hugely unnecessary

rather than bash people suffering from mental health issues why not deal with your own
i've found some of the commentary on this board completely grotesque

Agree wholeheartedly Ronald.

Totally agree Ronald, just caught up with the thread and am horrified at some of the views regarding MH in evidence here.

I think it's so sad that so many people have said things along the lines of

'it's not right that a child is being forced to be the carer and an intervention must be staged' ...

It's sad because people genuinely believe there's help out there and it must be the mum being the villian of the piece or selfish.

Please be aware of the reality. There is no magic intervention. It's really unlikely that ss would fund carers or help, although theyd care alot and point her in the direction of charities and support groups. The money ismt there unless the child is beomg neglected / comkng to harm/ gettimg into trouble / school work suffering.

That's why there are no many 'young carers'. And with the cuts, there is even less money to go around, and too many people with desperate desperate needs.

Oh and I'm saying don't call social services, or do. And I'm not saying yes she's a child carer, or no she's not.

Just wanting to inform the people who live in blissful ignorance that even if social services were to step in, it's highly unlikely this girl would find her role much changed. Id love to still be in that ignorance, but I'm not and the reality is very sad.

(and it says alot about us as a society that we don't value children's lives enough to fund adult carers and respite etc in these situations. But nevermind, it's just about skivvers who take and strivers who don't).

miscellaneous that is a very good point to make regarding children who are carers

I'd suggest that all of those projecting their own negative experiences of childhood onto others might want to seek some help to help them work through their issues and keep things in perspective

and I'd suggest that those getting upset at the thought that many people with MH issues make lousy parents, stop and think just why they are getting so upset at my statement. And why so many were so happy to create 101 elaborate reasons why Sophie's mother could "legitimately" need her 13yr old daughter to babysit her, but reject out of hand a situation like this could point to deeper issues that could be very detrimental to the child.

Just wanting to inform the people who live in blissful ignorance that even if social services were to step in, it's highly unlikely this girl would find her role much changed. Id love to still be in that ignorance, but I'm not and the reality is very sad

i have copied this from a few pages back. This is why I think that even though this slightly doubtful/possibly worrying/possibly nothing untoward at all incident should be reported. One small insignificant thing is nothing on it's on, clump 3, 4 or 5 similar reports together and kids start being saved from their parents.

I have gone back to where I grew up and talked with a few of the adults that had suspicions about our home and home life, and what exactly they had seen or heard or worried about at the time.

With hindsight, no one thing any of them saw/heard, on its own, if reported at the time, would have raised major alarm bells with s.s. I am pretty sure of that.

But if 2 or 3 or 4 of them had made a call with what they all witnessed/worried about individually, then cumulatively that information would definitely been have acted on as a matter of urgency by s.s and 4 children's lives would have improved dramatically and some serious abuse and neglect would have been prevented.

Coming back to this. Didn't really want to get into my own situation, but will now.

I suffer from anxiety. I reasonably often have to let my children do things, or do things with them, which I am terrified of for days beforehand. But. My. Kids. Come. First. I have to face the fear and go through it. I have to. There is no question of restricting their lives because of my issues.

Again, there is no evidence of anything that Sophie needs saving from. This yet more hyperbole and conjecture.