To think this mother needs to sort her issues out?

[FreckledLeopard]

There is a girl in DD's class (they're all in Year 8, so aged 12/13). The girl is in DD's group of friends. She is a sweet girl.

This girl (I will call her Sophie for sake of anonymity) recently turned 13. Aside from taking some cakes into school, she had no party or any kind of celebration as the mother said she couldn't afford to. I should probably add here that the school they all attend is private, so the mother must pay some school fees (though could, of course, have a substantial bursary. I don't know).

The girl lives with her mother and brother. The father (parents are divorced) lives abroad and doesn't seem to see much of his children at all. The brother is 21 and lives at home.

I've met the mother on a couple of occasions and she is odd. Very odd. Very fussy, very nervy, can't make normal chit chat. She is also seemingly obsessively grateful if her daughter is invited to anything (and given the amount that 13 year old girls socialise, it's a bit odd that she's so gushing and grateful anytime her daughter is invited anywhere).

Anyway, DD and her friends thought that as Sophie hadn't had any kind of celebration, they'd arrange a sleepover this half-term, invite Sophie, and make it a little surprise party with cakes and gifts. DD checked that Sophie was free, all the friends have been planning the party (fancy dress, food, attendees, music, presents etc).

Then, DD hears from Sophie (who is very upset) - her mother has said Sophie can't come as Sophie's older brother is out that night and the mother won't stay at her house on her own. She is too scared. Let me point out that they live in suburbia of a normal town (not known for gangs, violence or anything to be scared of). I called the mother (at DD's request) to explain that the girls had organised this surprise party which is why they really wanted Sophie to come. The mother told me she was sorry but was too scared to be at home on her own, so her daughter couldn't come to the party.

Sophie is of course massively upset (she didn't know about the party, but obviously wanted to see her friends). DD is upset. The friends are upset. There are no other dates that can be organised for half term.

Now, I understand people might have anxiety of some kind. But this woman is basically turning her children into her carers. God knows what happens if either the older brother of Sophie want to go to university, or, God forbid, leave home.

I've just had a text from the mother confirming that Sophie can't come. I'm sitting on my hands to stop myself from typing back that she needs to sort out her issues and not make her children suffer as a result.

AIBU in thinking this is massively unfair on the kids and will royally fuck up their lives? I obviously can't do much about it other than fume. But honestly - surely the mother should seek some help rather than making her kids suffer?

Again, there is no evidence of anything that Sophie needs saving from. This yet more hyperbole and conjecture

and what harm exactly would it do to call ss? If this is a one-off isolated event, then fine, it gets filed away never to see the light of day again. If more people with similar doubts make similar calls to s.s. then abuse is stopped in its tracks.

Why are you people so pertinently opposed to ss being informed of something that could be abuse, or could be nothing untoward at all? really, why?

Your suggestion of needing evidence before making a call to ss is at best stupid, and at worst highly dangerous. Abuse by it's very nature happens away from watchful eyes.

I think YABU - they are her children and she can parent how she wants. The world won't end if she misses one party. And you don't know the full story, so stop being miss judgy pants

Jesus Christ that is very, very weird and very said for Sophie ,

Also I'd be interested to know what she thinks her 13 year old is going to be able to do if the big bad wolf comes knocking.

I think that this thread is a bit ridiculous and people are projecting hugely. The woman actually told the OP that the prearranged party is a no go as she, a grown woman, cannot be home alone at night implying that she is happy to curtail her children's activities based on her own needs. The OP is wondering what will happen if Sophie gets a job in future, or needs to attend something important rather than getting shitty about the sleepover. This is not conjecture - the mother didn't say that she was looking to rearrange, she said that now her son is out her daughter cannot be as she is afraid to be home alone.

OP, I would be wanting to hand her a grip as well. If that shows a lack of empathy then so be it.

I really hope that all those people who think that 'handing someone a grip' is in any way appropriate never suffer from any kind of MH issue within their own families.

The stigma of MH is alive and well it seems.

Rubbish, what is clear is that people behaving like eejits is generally excused on the basis that they MAY suffer from MH issues. Even when, as in this case, there is nothing at all confirming that she does. All that is known is that she doesn't like staying at home alone and thinks her 13yr old should always be available to protect her.

Bollocks - who said she expected her child to 'protect her'? Stop making this shit up.

Errrm, Who said she had MH issues? Noone, its assumed by people on this thread. I assume when she says she is afraid to be alone that somehow her daughter is going to prevent whatever she is scared of from happening. Its no different to your assumption that she is a sufferer of some issue or other and therefore deserving of sympathy

Agreed - I've pointed out 5 or 6 times below that these zero evidence that there are any either MH issues or that Sophie is a carer.

Where others have made these assumptions there are some very bigoted views being displayed which I find sad and disappointing. I thought society had moved on and become more tolerant.

Though I am not sure if you include me in your statement, for the avoidance of doubt I would dispute that I have displayed any bigoted views. I have every sympathy with how crippling MH problems can be- I have also seen first hand how dreadful they can be for families in extreme cases. I object mostly to everyday stupidity/ignorance being passed off as MH related and people who are intolerant of those character traits as being prejudiced. If I read one more 'well have you considered that she might have MH problems' I may well be forced to respond 'I will thank you NOT to lump rude people into that category thank you, I may have MH challenges but I am not a twat'

Melted

It seems quite clear that you have many unresolved issues from your own childhood
It also seems quite clear that they are perhaps impacting upon your adult life - as you seem keen to talk about them a great deal and to project them on to other quite different and/or unknown situations

I'm sure that must be difficult for you. I'm sorry that you experienced what you did. Perhaps it is time to move on from there?

It is quite wrong of you to state that parents with MH issues make any worse parents than any other parents.
Wrong and damaging.

For instance, do physically disabled people make worse parents?
Do working parents make worse parents?
Do people with poorly resolved childhood issues make poor parents?
Do depressed parents make poor parents?
Or if any of these are combined does that make for even worse parenting?

Judging people by an illness or a state at any one time is not helpful. It is harmful. You by the things you are saying on this thread are frightening and stigmatising people who have enough going on already.

Behaviour like you are exhibiting prevents people with MH issues from asking from help

MH is not what defines poor parenting. It can be a factor in some cases as can 1001 other things
I'd respectfully request that you please keep your fairly horrible thoughts and feelings about anything other than what you know to yourself - unless you are being helpful or supportive.

I'm horrified at op, Sophie was going to the sleepover before her db changed his plans to go out.
It's none of your business that maybe the mother is scared to be on her own,this may be how things are in this family behind closed doors and you are making it into the mother having issues and others saying sort her shit out, hand her a grip. Not everybody can be strong,independent and socially aware. You have made massive judgements and sound stuck up your own arse op.
Every year since my ds was born he has had a party,but this year I was unable to afford a party and instead had a small family gathering. He hardly missed out and I would be pissed off that a surprise party had been organised first and then me as an after thought be told about it. How op do you know that Sophie's mother hadn't done the same family gathering but just didn't broadcast it to you who is hell bent on being involved in a womens life who you don't particularly like as you've said.
You say the mother has no creativity to get out of the sleepover! That comment is you saying this women is beneath you intelligence wise.
My ds had ten pounds to go out with today but his friends had fifteen does it mean SS or his school should get involved ffs because he missed out on having an extra fiver.
Mind your own business, chaffing of your judgey pants can't be a nice feeling

Actually that is a bit too personally directed toward you melted

I'm sorry for that.

There are lots of harmful things being said on here. You feel you have a reason or need to speak the way that you do I'm sure.

What good you imagine your words will do I'm unsure.

I realise that there are a lot of damaged people projecting onto others but really it can be very harmful and it can prevent people from talking about their illness or from getting help.

There has been a lot of negativity directed toward people suffering from MH issues. This is especially crap as no one actually even knows if Sophie's mother has a MH issue. Just a nice excuse to jump on board and give one section of people a kicking.

What if the mum had been physically disabled?
If she couldn't let Sophie go to the sleepover because she was in a wheelchair and needed her to be in the house in case she needed help overnight
Would there have been people on here saying how selfish she was and how she needed to be handed a grip??

If Sophie's mum had a physical disability she should sort out alternative care for herself. She shouldn't be spoiling her daughter's enjoyment of childhood.

as you seem keen to talk about them a great deal and to project them on to other quite different and/or unknown situations

Ronald, If there is projection coming from me, there is as much if not more projection coming from the many people like you who are repeatedly trying to shut me up (not to mention the pages of abuse the OP received before me) and point blank refuse to accept that needing your 13yr old daughter to babysit you is very problematic adult behaviour that could point to far worse issues in this girls life. All this "oh we should have sympathy for poor Sophie's mum", what about poor bloody Sophie?

I'm sorry that you experienced what you did. Perhaps it is time to move on from there?

And I'm sorry that you feel so offended with my opinion, perhaps it's time for you to accept that is my opinion, and I have every right to voice it. I will never shut up when I think a kid could be suffering abuse. Perhaps if you can't accept that, it's time for you to move on.

Agreed - I've pointed out 5 or 6 times below that these zero evidence that there are any either MH issues or that Sophie is a carer

And yet MME, your post before this one, in reference to QueenOfAllISee saying that she would hand Sophie's mum a grip, was

"I really hope that all those people who think that 'handing someone a grip' is in any way appropriate never suffer from any kind of MH issue within their own families. The stigma of MH is alive and well it seems"

You seem to be interpreting Queen's comment as an attack on a MH patient (Sophie's mum), and adding to the stigma they suffer, yet then going on to say you don't think Sophie's mum has MH issues. Contradiction surely!

For the record, I don't really care what Sophie's mum has or hasn't, she should not be needing her 13 yr old daughter to babysit her because she can't be alone at night.

angel do you really believe its THAT simple.

what is SO difficult about it ?

Seriously, what is so difficult about an adult not putting her needs in front of her child's? Whatever the reason she can't be alone at night, it's the mother responsibility to ensure that her daughter's needs don't play second fiddle to her own needs.

I suffer from depression,anxiety and ptsd due to a horrible abusive childhood. I am socially awkward as I have a fear of getting close to people and I do not get involved with school mums only one or two and that's only because ds goes on sleepovers.
I have gone through a stage of not receprecating sleepovers as recently I have gone through dv resulting in police protection. This I do not want to explain to others as I feel embarrassed to say that something might kick off via my ex possibly when your child is staying over at mine. It's nobody's business but mine unless I want to say so.
Have you ever thought this might be the case op for Sophie's mother?

Exactly melted

It is a one off and is around her daughter's birthday.

Actually that is a bit too personally directed toward you melted. I'm sorry for that

No need to be sorry, and I didn’t find it too personal. Am I projecting, yes most likely. Just as much as those who can’t bear to hear a negative word said about MH sufferers are projecting. As someone said upthread, we all see life through a prism formed by our own life experiences.

There are lots of harmful things being said on here. You feel you have a reason or need to speak the way that you do I'm sure.

I do, and that reason is - I know far too many children live very abusive childhoods.

What good you imagine your words will do I'm unsure

What good to the people who won’t hear a bad word against Sophie’s mother think they are doing?

Sorry that was question instead of an answer. What good could my words do?

They might just give the OP that little bit of support she may need to take her worries about Sophie’s life and what could be happening to someone who could do something about it. Like school or social services.

Some of the posts earlier in this thread were very alarming from a possible child abuse standpoint. Things like “what evidence to you have that this girls might be being abused”. That is so wrong. No one ever needs evidence to give s.s. a call when they have fears about a child.

Also there were words being used like the OP was being malicious. If people start getting scared labels like that getting thrown at them for saying child abuse may be happening, children ultimately suffer.

I realise that there are a lot of damaged people projecting onto others but really it can be very harmful and it can prevent people from talking about their illness or from getting help

That my words could be damaging to a mother with MH issues, yes that’s highly possible.

That the words of the people who attacked the OP for 6 pages long, and have attacked me from all sides, those words too could be very damaging because they could stop someone from reporting possible child abuse.

It works both ways.

There has been a lot of negativity directed toward people suffering from MH issues. This is especially crap as no one actually even knows if Sophie's mother has a MH issue. Just a nice excuse to jump on board and give one section of people a kicking

I don’t care what label Sophie’s mother has or doesn’t have, her behavior is very worrying. In the OP’s shoes I would have no idea what her mental health status is, I would however not let the grass grow under my feet reporting my concerns to s,s.

What if the mum had been physically disabled? If she couldn't let Sophie go to the sleepover because she was in a wheelchair and needed her to be in the house in case she needed help overnight. Would there have been people on here saying how selfish she was and how she needed to be handed a grip??

I have no issue with children being carers as long as there is no abuse going on. Of course a child can be a carer, and be happy and loved and not suffer from the experience. Of course being a carer doesn’t mean that child is being abused. Maybe if Sophie’s mum had taken the time to explain her home situation to the OP then her fears would have been allayed and she would have no need to post on MN. But she didn’t. The situation was very ambiguous, the OP had worries and concerns after speaking to the mum. I think she has a duty to inform s.s of her concerns.

I suffer from depression,anxiety and ptsd due to a horrible abusive childhood. I am socially awkward as I have a fear of getting close to people and I do not get involved with school mums only one or two and that's only because ds goes on sleepovers. I have gone through a stage of not receprecating sleepovers as recently I have gone through dv resulting in police protection. This I do not want to explain to others as I feel embarrassed to say that something might kick off via my ex possibly when your child is staying over at mine. It's nobody's business but mine unless I want to say so. Have you ever thought this might be the case op for Sophie's mother?

Scream, Firstly, I am sincerely sorry for everything you have had to contend with. I hope the situation with the ex improves and the threat of dv is removed from your life. I have a few friends who PTSD and all of them have recently had emdr therapy and report good things about it. Would that maybe help you? (Sorry, that was just an aside).

Irrespective to whether Sophie’s mum is facing a situation like yours or not, it is still worrying that she tells a school friends mum “No, she can’t go to the surprise party that you have all arranged for her, I need her here at night to babysit me as I don’t like being alone”. Now it is possible that Sophie’s mum is spinning a line with this “scared of the dark” thing, when really it is an abusive ex issue (or any of the 500 possible scenariois put forth in this thread in support of Sophie’s mum). They are all irrelevant because none of us know. All we know is, the person closest to the flames, the OP, is concerned and worried about Sophie’s home life and her welfare. As such she should phone s.s. and ask them to look into if they find that’s needed. If ss should then turn up at her door and Sophie’s mum has a reasonable explanation about why she avoids sleepovers (like you do), then end of story. OP’s mind is put at rest. No harm is done. Everyone is happy.

Also abuse is relative.

What one person perceives to be abuse another thrives in. Maybe as a family they all do very well in their situation and wouldn't appreciate your calls of abuse.

Melted I have found your opinion to be very enlightening in terms of your own experience. That singular experience does not inform me of anything except your experience.

The evidence is that 'Sophie' has had sleepovers, attends school, has a social life and celebrated her birthday. Evidentially, on one occasion and in one circumstance she was unable to do a sleepover as her mother needed her to be present in the house with her. This is not evidence of abuse.
It isn't even really evidence of an adult putting their needs above their child's. Sometimes we have to make compromises as parents and as children. We certainly need to understand that parents are just people trying their best in their particular circumstances with their own set of problems.

I'm sure there are lots of people who have lied to get out of something their child was looking forward to simply because it didn't suit them.
Should Social services all be called for those parents?

We have no idea why 'Sophie's' mum couldn't find a work around this time. I'm sure she tried or maybe she didn't. It can't have been easy if Sophie was looking forward to it but maybe they are all just trying their best with the hand they are dealt.
Try to show empathy to others - although I know that is hard when you know what must or should be done in every situation.
It is far easier to judge, blame or drag your past experiences or prejudices into this situation but I'm asking that you try not to do the easiest but most harmful thing

Children are carers often sole carers for physically and mentally disabled people every day all over the country.
Often their lives are severely curtailed socially and scholastically.
Social Services do pretty much nothing for those children. It is simply a fact of their life.

I think that people have an incredibly naive view of the work of SS or the width of the net provided by the Government.
People need help and understanding.

I professionally understand the difficulties of those living with MH issues. I understand that some are incapable of parenting effectively due to their illnesses or disability. They need the help and support of the community and all the NHS and govt agencies available until they are well enough to cope again.
When that is the circumstance I insist that that is what occurs and ensure that it does.

Ronald, I hate to keep repeating myself, but I will. Something in the OPs post made my "radar" go off. Is my radar fool proof, no of course not. I know on the surface that not being allowed to go to one sleepover is hardly evidence of abuse, that's obvious and really goes without saying. But I also know, in abusive homes, that the "weird things" that do get spotted by the outside world, are just the tip of the iceberg. It's the small, on their own insignificant things, that people look back on and think "shit, I knew at the time that was a bit off, but only now do I realise how off it really was, if only I had acted on that slight gut feeling I had".

I have said this twice already on this thread, but will keep repeating it as long as people keep coming back at me with things like the reasoning not to call s.s that you give above.

If I am wrong an phone call to s.s is wasted, If you are wrong, a child's welfare is at stake.

I have gone back to where I grew up and talked with a few of the adults that had suspicions about our home and home life, and what exactly they had seen or heard or worried about at the time.

With hindsight, no one thing any of them saw/heard, on its own, if reported at the time, would have raised major alarm bells with s.s. I am pretty sure of that.

But if 2 or 3 or 4 of them had made a call with what they all witnessed/worried about individually, then cumulatively that information would definitely been have acted on as a matter of urgency by s.s and 4 children's lives would have improved dramatically and some serious abuse and neglect would have been prevented.

Also abuse is relative.

No. It's. Not.

There are very specific criteria to be met to be classed as abuse.

What one person perceives to be abuse another thrives in. Maybe as a family they all do very well in their situation and wouldn't appreciate your calls of abuse.

Kids always "thrive" and have a happy outward appearance in toxic households because they don't know any different. They think that's normal and that they just have to deal with it. It's not until they get older and move out that they see just how dysfunctional their family is and understand why they always thought something was off but couldn't put their finger on it.

More importantly, people that are being mentally abused don't always realize they're being mentally abused or gas lighted.

If I thought something was off about a home I'd call SS every single time. Every. Single. Time.

I'm sorry parents get stressed about SS investigating. But it's not something that "tears a family apart", and parents that are the "victims" of these visits need to get the fuck over themselves. As I've said before I'd rather stress a good parent out, than leave a child in an abusive situation by saying nothing.