Boys in girls' clothing - how far is too far?

[lecce]

Before I start, I want to make it clear that I am not looking for congratulations for being a 'liberal parent.' This post is a genuine request for advice and, yes, it's here partly for traffic, but I am certainly asking whether I am, or would be, UR to be going as far as I am.

DS2 (nearly 5, YR) has been into the princess dresses, pink accessories etc for a couple of years now. It shows no signs of abating, but shifts focus - has gone through Hello Kitty, female Horrible Histories characters, Frozen, Paloma Faith...

His latest craze is a girls' school uniform summer dress, which we finally gave in and got him at the weekend. He wants to wear it in the evenings and at weekends. We discussed with him the risk of running into classmates, but he insists he doesn't mind if they comment/laugh.

This is what concerns me - the reactions of peers. He is very shy and seems to have only one friend in his class. She was at nursery with him and the friendship has continued, but, other than her, the only people from school he mentions are girls two or three years older than him, who enjoy babying him and find him 'cute' - (he is ). I have taken him to a few parties lately and there was no interaction with anyone other than this girl.

He has his own party in July and envisages himself singing along to Paloma Faith in his best dress while others, I don't know - join in? Watch in admiration? I don't know how to balance giving him a party he actually wants, and ensuring that others enjoy it/ don't spend it laughing at him. I know he has had some comments from people at school, but he has never really seemed upset by them, and, afaik, they haven't come from his classmates.

A big part of me thinks giving him the message that what he likes isn't 'right' will damage his confidence, not improve it, but another part thinks I am just allowing him to make things more difficult for himself. Even my mother (very non-judgey non-interfering) gave an awkward silence when I told her about it on the phone, and I know that when she and my Dad visit next week, there will be comments from him.

DS wears nothing but one of the three dresses he has in his free time. His teachers say he is coming out of his shell, and that they see him as 'quietly confident'. We are trying a variety of things to build confidence, but, overall, WIBU to just continue as we are and see how it develops

A friend of mine's little boy went througha phase of this, particularly the Disney Princess dresses. ON seeing him in the Cinderella one one morning, an elderly lady asked him why he wasn't dressed as a boy? He thought for a moment, fixed her with a steely glare and replied "Duh. It's BLUE".

I think letting him be himself, letting him learn how to deal with other people's reactions to it, and being supportive to him will increase his confidence more than communicating (however gently) that he is doing something "wrong".

I think the way the parents choose to dress the children from the start helps at my ds's nursery. Most children start when they are 1 so it really is the parent's choice what they wear. The majority of children are dressed in gender neutral bright coloured clothing.

There are nurseries in Sweden where the children are referred to using a gender neutral pro noun ( hen-Han mean him and hon means her, hen means that person
who's gender I don't wish to define)

It seems sensible to let children just be children and to teach them acceptance rather than teaching children who do wish to dress in clothing allocated to the opposite gender that they are odd and that they will be teased.

Op, he's only 4. I think you're right to gently explain that other children might find this different and comment on it.

There are 2 boys in my sons class who have always preferred to dress as girls. They wear pink coats, hairbands, Disney princess socks etc. Their friends from school are mostly girls I think. From what my son says (or doesn't say), the children generally just accept how they are without really thinking about it. My son certainly doesn't comment on their dress or 'girly' play, but I know they don't play with him as they have very little in common.

On the other hand, I have heard other mums in the playground make judgey comments.

The boys have (nicely) declined invitations to my sons parties as they were based around sports and activities that were 'a bit rough for them'. That was fine with me. And I know that my son has not been invited to their parties as he is bit gung-ho and likes a bit of rough and tumble. Also v fine with me.

You sound like such a lovely mum. Could you start inviting classmates for tea, so you can work out who he might be able to develop friendships with, and who might like to come to him party?

Could you make the party a mostly family one, maybe invite best friends family too, cousins, neighbours and any other trusted people? Set up a popstar room with music and a mike, disco ball, big box of dressing up for anyone who wants to do that, and other more traditional games in another room or the garden for children less interested in performing.

Can I just ask OP - what does his dad make of this?

"Mum, i am 14 years old, can i wear a bra? All girls have them already"
"I don't think you should, Tommy."

Rudis?? What is that even supposed to mean?

How far is too far...

it is not unusual for four year old boys to wear girls clothes. I occasionally had a just turned five year old who would still wear those clothes from the school dress up box. sometime around five boys begin to think that they will turn into a girl if they wear girls clothes. Eventually they learn what really makes them a boy. it is part of normal child development.

ds is currently in the I am a girl because I am wearing a dress phase.

I hate that genders are forced or set in stone.

I have 2 boys who are very 'boyish' my 9 year old has made a few comments over the last year or so, quite a few leading up to his birthday about 'wanting to be a girl'. I had some long chats with him about why he felt like that and in what way, and it turned out that he likes hopscotch and skipping at school and has lots of girls as friends (as well as boys) and is interested in doing hair and make up, and likes dresses. Due to these being 'girls things' he decided he 'wanted to be a girl'.
I explained that 'stuff was just stuff, not girl or boy stuff' and that he could do all of those things and still be a boy. I said to him he can have a willy and like skipping, he doesn't need to get rid of it and 'be a girl'.
The upshot was that he quite likes having a willy as well as liking 'girl stuff', so he is now no longer 'wants to be a girl'

I wanted to be a boy growing up, boys had better things to do and better options than girls. I was not girly at all and had lots of boys as friends, with only a handful of close female friends. I grew up to be straight, and a woman, all be it working in a very male dominated job, but I like being 'female', and love make up and beauty as being up to my elbows in muck and machinery.

People are just people in my mind, I am uncomfortable with the idea of gender reassignment surgery because someone is a 'man' or 'woman' in the opposite body. Your body is just your vessel, stuff is just stuff. How do you live 'like a woman' (for e.g.)? Whether you have a penis or a vagina makes no difference, the difference is a woman can be pregnant and have a baby, that's all. (That's just my opinion though, I am not trying to be obnoxious or goady).

Op, with regards to your son I would carry on as you are tbh; keep an eye out for bullying etc and try and get across to your son what society sees as 'normal' does not quite fit with his outlook, but that doesn't mean he is wrong at all.
If it is pressed at all that there are 'boys things/ways/traits' and 'girls things/ways/traits', that's when gender confusion begins (imo).

For his birthday, just explain that other children would probably be a bit bored just watching him sing, but you could have a karaoke set or something for everyone to do a song each. Have a flamboyant dressing up theme too, so he is 'part' of it all, not sticking out from the herd.

This is so interesting and yes, op sounds great.

But I'm challenged to think how I would respond... I don't think I'd be happy for my male child to wear ONLY female clothes outside school. I have a ds and I'm happy for him to dress up in anything he likes. But his clothes are "boys clothes or gender neutral.

Some of the responses here seem to lean towards encouraging him to question his gender rather than reinforcing his gender (if that makes sense?). I can't help but think that in RL people might be a little less PC and respond as the op's mother has?

Hmm.... I think what I'm trying to say is that guiding small children is about more than just letting them wear whatever they like. It's also about helping them understand society.

To clarify, my ds only has boys/gender neutral clothes for everyday wearing. But masses of dressing up stuff including dresses, skirts, etc etc

My children at that age wore what I bought them. They had a huge box full of dressing up clothes and could wear what they wanted to from that during dress up.

There was a report in the papers a few weeks ago about a 5 year old who wore a pink, sparkly dress to after school club every day and his mother was asked to dress him in gender specific clothes. The boy had over 100 dresses and high heeled shoes!

Sorry but it is one thing playing dress up but who would buy their 5 year old son 100 dresses? What 5 year old girl has 100 dresses?

Maybe that mother had actually wished to have a daughter. I can't think of buying even one dress for a boy, nor high heels, what else, a swimsuit?
However, majority of childrens' clothes are gender neutral, for only difference if its painted with cats or with cars.

Brilliant post Scarlett, I totally get your son's point about wanting to be a girl simply because he felt he couldn't enjoy those apparently "girl's pursuits" otherwise.

ikea I love the sound of that nursery. I really, really think I would be very happy living in Sweden, I've often thought that!

You are right that buying 100 dresses for a girl would in itself be bizarre. And high heeled shoes for a 5 year old child! It sounds like it is the mother or both the parents who are projecting their issues on to their child.

slightly off the track here but my 5 year old ds is very interested in my make up, asking is it just for girls? He has taken to nicking my lip balms including tinted ones, which I find hidden in his room. He asked this morning several times could he take my lip balm to school because his lips were dry (which they weren't so persuaded him to leave at home).

In an ideal world we would be able to dress exactly how we want to without getting a hard time about it, but that is not realistic. I try to protect my son as much as I can, which means sometimes conforming to stereotypes to please others.
Whilst at home I think it is ok to let them experiment, but kids can be cruel and so can their parents.

Sorry about abandoning the thread today. It's great to have so many detailed and supportive responses.

I have had a look at some of the links and will admit to feeling a bit daunted and tearful about the idea that he could be transgender - just because of the implications for his future happiness. However, it is interesting that the NHS site says that it is far too early to tell. We had a little chat today and he expressed his wish to be a girl, but said he was a boy. Neither DH, who shares my views on this (someone asked), nor I can remember him ever saying he thinks he is a girl. don't know if that's significant ...think someone upthread said it might be, and it made sense.

Anyway, I think we are just going to try and enjoy his eccentricities in the meantime, and keep trying to build his confidence. Although, he was off school recovering from a bug today and took great delight in parading around the playground in his dress when we went to collect ds1 . I do think it might be an attention thing - he is shy but loves being the centre of attention and the dresses enable him to do that without speaking - result .

Love the party suggestions. General dressing-up is the obvious solution - Thank you!

I know he's still a wee bit young, but what about getting him into acting in a year or so.

You said he's a bit eccentric and loves attention, but attention which is not directed at him but the character he's putting on (via the dressing up). I wonder if it is mainly a confidence in himself issue after all?

Stage type acting will allow him to adopt different personas and to be flamboyant and noticed, and dress up in all manner of stuff, without doing so at the expense of him not 'fitting in' with the norm.

I really think the whole gender confusion idea is too premature, and is erring towards giving him a 'label' when he's just growing up and trying to figure out his place in everything. Confidence building is definitely the way to keep going for now.

Lots of children say they want to be the opposite sex, because they want to do or wear things the opposite sex does. If you tell a boy he can't wear the dresses or play with the toys he wants to because he is a boy, he is naturally going to think, I wish I was a girl then.

That is very very different from thinking he is a girl.

I don't think it's a problem your ds has, I think it's a problem with British culture.

I agree

I would work on the friendship problem. Do you invite other children around? Do he have interests outside school? Meet other children outside school? Since he seems rather isolated I would be inclined to take the one friend that he has, and a couple more that he would like to be friends with, out for the day instead of a party.

I know someone who used to hatch eggs.
Even before chicks are hatched, it is possible to see in the unhatched egg, that a few have both female and male aspects to them.

Yes you get animals that have genital aspects of both sexes, and in humans too. But very few Trans people have this. It is a different issue, although the two often get confused together.

I would be concerned if this was my child to be honest and would want him to have counselling to eliminate the possibility of him actually 'being' a girl.

I totally agree with this.

But the boy doesnt say he thinks he is a girl. I think that could potentially create a problem that doesn't exist.