Boys in girls' clothing - how far is too far?

[lecce]

Before I start, I want to make it clear that I am not looking for congratulations for being a 'liberal parent.' This post is a genuine request for advice and, yes, it's here partly for traffic, but I am certainly asking whether I am, or would be, UR to be going as far as I am.

DS2 (nearly 5, YR) has been into the princess dresses, pink accessories etc for a couple of years now. It shows no signs of abating, but shifts focus - has gone through Hello Kitty, female Horrible Histories characters, Frozen, Paloma Faith...

His latest craze is a girls' school uniform summer dress, which we finally gave in and got him at the weekend. He wants to wear it in the evenings and at weekends. We discussed with him the risk of running into classmates, but he insists he doesn't mind if they comment/laugh.

This is what concerns me - the reactions of peers. He is very shy and seems to have only one friend in his class. She was at nursery with him and the friendship has continued, but, other than her, the only people from school he mentions are girls two or three years older than him, who enjoy babying him and find him 'cute' - (he is ). I have taken him to a few parties lately and there was no interaction with anyone other than this girl.

He has his own party in July and envisages himself singing along to Paloma Faith in his best dress while others, I don't know - join in? Watch in admiration? I don't know how to balance giving him a party he actually wants, and ensuring that others enjoy it/ don't spend it laughing at him. I know he has had some comments from people at school, but he has never really seemed upset by them, and, afaik, they haven't come from his classmates.

A big part of me thinks giving him the message that what he likes isn't 'right' will damage his confidence, not improve it, but another part thinks I am just allowing him to make things more difficult for himself. Even my mother (very non-judgey non-interfering) gave an awkward silence when I told her about it on the phone, and I know that when she and my Dad visit next week, there will be comments from him.

DS wears nothing but one of the three dresses he has in his free time. His teachers say he is coming out of his shell, and that they see him as 'quietly confident'. We are trying a variety of things to build confidence, but, overall, WIBU to just continue as we are and see how it develops

In ordinary speak maybe Pirate, but in terms of science and academic disciplines they really are not. I'm sorry but Myrtle, whois and whynow are right.

In which way are they "right"
This is neither a science lecture or and academic reading, it's an informal advice website. The words Sex and gender are interchangeable because, as you pointed out, it's "ordinary speak".

Thanks for the replies.

All these comments about 'gender-confusion' are interesting. He has several times mentioned actually wanting to be a girl, rather than just 'liking pink', iyswim. He has also asked whether he would be a mummy or a daddy when he grows up, and didn't like the answer. Interestingly, ds1 (7) asked whether it is possible to change from a man to a woman, and when I replied (age-appropriate, but honest) he said in a very matter-of-fact-tone that that would be what ds2 would do.

I am torn between thinking that ds2 is far too young for us to be thinking like this, and having this feeling that he may be 'different'. I don't know, but I do feel like it can't be right for me to be thinking of giving him the message that how he feels is wrong in some way.

Noblegiraffe He wore a Hello Kitty onesie once and had some negative comments (had a thread on it), though I think they were along the 'factual' "That's for girls," lines that you describe, rather than downright nasty.

But what we're actually pointing out is that for this particularlchild, based on the OP, his sex and gender may well not be the same - that's the whole point of mine and the others' posts, I think!

Pirate that's really not true - gender and sex are two different things. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct. And no, nobody is born sexless but some people are born intersex. They still have a biological sex though.

I am also confused by you thinking that somehow children don't have a biological sex

Epic cross post with the OP - my point proved I think!

But what we're actually pointing out is that for this particularlchild, based on the OP, his sex and gender may well not be the same

And in the same context, "children are sexless" can not be mistakenly taken any other way than what was intended, can it?

OP the charity mermaids may be of help for you.

Pirate 'children are sexless' is just incorrect. Children are not sexless, and neither are they genderless as a group.

Nope sorry. You seem to be willfully misunderstanding. Sex and gender are not the same, and gender too is usually established internally very, very early in a child's life, so if you're trying to say that a child is also genderless then again you're wrong. Most children will know what sex and gender they are, regardless of whether the two are actually the same or not.

Lecce bless you - I really think you sound like a wonderful mum, I am not just saying this.

How he feels isn't wrong, and I am guessing he understands at least something about societal 'norms' to wear the correct school uniform? I think you're doing all the right things.

I would probably ask him if he'd like to talk about what he likes to wear with somebody and ask your GP for a referral. I know it sounds heavy but if - I know it's a big 'if' - but if he IS 'female', this can be identified and helped very early and really the earlier the better for this sort of thing. I know people feel uncomfortable with the concept of such a huge decision being at the door of children but it will be dealt with sensitively and the point is, it's better dealt with before rather than after puberty. That's because for someone who is born the wrong gender, going through the physical changes to become a man or a woman is enormously distressing.

I am sure you will sort it x

Pirate 'children are sexless' is just incorrect. Children are not sexless, and neither are they genderless as a group

i think they are until a certain age, and that age is when they themselves start noticing and caring about the subject.

I have disagree that 5 year olds are genderless. Unless he has lived in isolation for the last 5 years then I would expect him to have a solid gender identity. A five year old boy dressing in 'girls' clothes IS somewhat different and NOT common.

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/10/my-son-chooses-to-be-alice-in-wonderland/280968/

op might be interested in the above article. I read it some months ago and was reminded of it by this thread.

I hope it posted ok, am a first time poster.

he sounds like such a lovely little lad, not sure i would handle it but then my ds (nearly 3) won't really wear anything without a superhero on it which can be a bit of a PITA.

He does sound very confident, maybe just go with the flow for now rather than counselling which will turn it into an 'issue' and maybe leave him with negative associations.

My son used to wear lots of "dress up" clothes from the are of 3 till 7.
I started to worry same as OP.

The way I got out of the girls dresses was to buy him lots of colorful clothes. When he was that age (he is 14 now) there wasn't such a big choice and his colour was orange , also pyjamas, socks, caps

I also bought lots of boys colorful dressing up clothes and slowly was suggesting him dressing up in those.

DS wears nothing but one of the three dresses he has in his free time. - that is exactly what was happening in our house. He has daughter who is 2 years old and now he admits he wanted to be dressing like her.

Now he is very artistic and sensitive boy (doing well in his academic subjects too). He loves his Art and Music, sings musical theatre songs and performed in many small plays.

I suggest you take him shopping and see if he would go for colorful clothes too.

I also had sleepless nights over it and can understand where your worry is coming from.

Just throwing this in here, and it might be probably is totally irrelevant, but historically and until relatively recently boys would wear robes or dresses until about 5 or 6 as a matter of course.

Indeed, becuase they were seen as sexless.

Sex is a basic biological fact. Most are born genetically male or female, although there are genetic defects with unusual numbers of X or Y chromosomes. Gender is a sociological construct, with variations in gender roles in different societies. They are not interchangeable, even in "ordinary speak". This gender can change,via e.g gender reassignment, but sex cannot. Drives me crazy when people talk about genders of unborn babies.
Regardless, arguing about this doesn't help the OP.

I think you need to dig a bit deeper OP. Does your ds want to be a girl does he think he is a girl! or does he just enjoy dressing as a girl?
If it is the first or the last option I wouldn't or anything other than what you are already doing tbh. But if it's the middle option you should probably seek further advice from some of the places already mentioned on this thread.
I have a 6 year old ds who wears a Hello Kitty onesie at home, happily wears nail varnish in front of his mates (who are mostly girls) and will wear female character fancy dress at any opportunity. But he speaks about being a 'dad' one day, refers to himself as a boy/brother. I am confident that there is no gender confusion in his case.

They are not interchangeable, even in "ordinary speak".

Then why is “gender reassignment surgery” referred to as a sex change or “sex reassignment surgery”.

Because the two words have become interchangeable in informal discussion, like this.

I think you need to dig a bit deeper OP. Does your ds want to be a girl does he think he is a girl! or does he just enjoy dressing as a girl?

This would be what you need to find out. I second this.

I remember the onsie thread as well, thought you dealt with it very well

I think that at 5 you could have a good conversation with him.

Something along the lines of, that you are happy for him to wear whatever he likes, but that some people think dresses are for girls. So if he chooses to wear dresses, some people might laugh or comment. How would he feel about that? Would he be OK? Would he mind?
You may find that he has thought about it a lot more than you realise, and he may offer insights that you don't expect.

You could also ask him what it is he likes about dresses, (is it the look or is it that they are girls' clothes for example)

While it is quite normal for boys to dress up and go through phases of liking dresses etc, what the OP is describing is, to me, more extreme and I can see why you are worried about how to handle it.

You sound like lovely parents, and whatever is going on internally, your open accepting attitude will help him work it out.

I would keep doing what you are rather than go for counselling right now, as that might make him feel there is an issue with how he is. The counselling is not to do that, but it is talking about, what for him are simple choices, might make a big deal of it. You are affirming who he is and that is brilliant. Just keep the counselling etc in your bag of tricks as he gets older.

I say this because my DS, while not being bothered by dresses as such (never terribly bothered by clothing at all, except for 'fluffy trousers", was convinced he could be both a boy and a girl. At one point he said he was thinking of cutting his willy off. I was a bit at that one liner! I made a mental note to hide blades, but asked why.. "So I can be a girl" was his response. I just then said that the way he suggested wasn't the safest way.... He was little at the time, about 4? He also wanted to have a baby, and was convinced (I couldn't tell him otherwise) that boys had boy babies and girls girl babies. He would wear his sister's dresses, and has dressed up as a panto dame (in a dress) at age 8, oh and as me.

He hasn't mentioned wanting to be a girl since about the age of 6. He is confident with 'who' he is. I have always tried to get them to think about their own identities rather than gender divides, tho as that gets older it is harder because society imposes so much!he is just happy to be who he is. Cross any other bridges when we get to them, but I am pretty confident he is birth sex (might have had doubts when he said the above tho). I want to reiterate, i NEVER EVER said to him, "you are a boy, you like boy things". I did say he was a boy, but could like whatever he wanted. But only in the sex differentiation sense (so physically speaking, and mainly to deal with the whole boy baby issue).

My advice? Don't over react either way, just nurture him. He is very young, and he may well, "know", or might just be 'finding' his identity, I really wouldn't overload him with interventions right now.