Boys in girls' clothing - how far is too far?

[lecce]

Before I start, I want to make it clear that I am not looking for congratulations for being a 'liberal parent.' This post is a genuine request for advice and, yes, it's here partly for traffic, but I am certainly asking whether I am, or would be, UR to be going as far as I am.

DS2 (nearly 5, YR) has been into the princess dresses, pink accessories etc for a couple of years now. It shows no signs of abating, but shifts focus - has gone through Hello Kitty, female Horrible Histories characters, Frozen, Paloma Faith...

His latest craze is a girls' school uniform summer dress, which we finally gave in and got him at the weekend. He wants to wear it in the evenings and at weekends. We discussed with him the risk of running into classmates, but he insists he doesn't mind if they comment/laugh.

This is what concerns me - the reactions of peers. He is very shy and seems to have only one friend in his class. She was at nursery with him and the friendship has continued, but, other than her, the only people from school he mentions are girls two or three years older than him, who enjoy babying him and find him 'cute' - (he is ). I have taken him to a few parties lately and there was no interaction with anyone other than this girl.

He has his own party in July and envisages himself singing along to Paloma Faith in his best dress while others, I don't know - join in? Watch in admiration? I don't know how to balance giving him a party he actually wants, and ensuring that others enjoy it/ don't spend it laughing at him. I know he has had some comments from people at school, but he has never really seemed upset by them, and, afaik, they haven't come from his classmates.

A big part of me thinks giving him the message that what he likes isn't 'right' will damage his confidence, not improve it, but another part thinks I am just allowing him to make things more difficult for himself. Even my mother (very non-judgey non-interfering) gave an awkward silence when I told her about it on the phone, and I know that when she and my Dad visit next week, there will be comments from him.

DS wears nothing but one of the three dresses he has in his free time. His teachers say he is coming out of his shell, and that they see him as 'quietly confident'. We are trying a variety of things to build confidence, but, overall, WIBU to just continue as we are and see how it develops

My little boy is still too small to have a clothing preference but the older boys in his nursery group are 4 and one has lovely long hair that he is very proud of and the other boy regularly wears dresses, the boy who loves dresses also has s selection of different slippers, he explained his different slippers to me, when your wearing a dress you should wear the sparkly pink hello kitty slippers.

I could not guess which sex the children in the other groups are, many of the girls have short hair and many of the boys have long hair with pretty clips, they don't seem to conform to pink for girls, blue for boys.

These are children up to the age of 7.

I don't live in the UK, I live in a country where gender stereotyping is much less common. I don't think it's a problem your ds has, I think it's a problem with British culture.

Your ds would fit in perfectly at my ds's nursery and I'm pretty sure all the children at that nursery don't need counseling.

It has been suggested your son might be Trans.The NHS website says that the majority of children formally diagnosed with gender identity disorder before puberty, do not grow up Trans, but grow up to be gay.

Your son is very young. At this age children commonly say they want to be the opposite sex, or a dog, or a cat. This is normal behaviour.

It sounds like you are doing a good ob of bringing up a happy child.

There's a child in my dd's class who is the same as your ds. She recently decided to dress and live as a girl. The school has been very supportive, and the kids have mostly been very accepting - they are 7.

Nobody knows what the future will bring but this child looks so happy!

I remember one story, where a boy decided to wear a skirt to school in protest, as it did not allow boys to wear shorts in summer, but girls were allowed skirts.

Otherwise i wouldn't buy skirts and dresses for boys, unless they were truly born of wrong gender. Btw, that age i wanted to be a boy, because it seemed to me at that time, that boys' life is easier and more fun. But it was just a phase, and i neither trans nor gay.

There are 2 boys in my daughters year (year 2 so the children are 6, nearly 7).

One has extremely long fine blond hair down to his waist and he likes to wear girls dresses at home. He doesn't wear them on Mufti days but does wear them at weekends to the park. He was always very cool over it and didn't seem to care what people thought. His parents weren't worried.

However, now he is getting extremely bullied and is hysterical in the mornings. His mum is having a nightmare and is going to get his hair cut and make him more like a boy. His 7th birthday is next month and she is going to hold a party where only boys are invited to try to encourage friendships.

The other boy is a bit of an enigma in his personality but he also really likes all girls toys and dollies. He looks like a boy but likes princess dresses, not all dresses, just princesses. His mum was very anti stopping his wishes in what toys to play with so has just gone with the flow.

However, his cousin goes to school with him so knows about his girls toys and bullies him terribly and tells all the other children. This is very difficult for his mum to deal with as it is her sister's daughter who is doing the bullying.

The mum has gone to school a number of times to get the bullying sorted but the school can't seem to change how the other children react. The mum has now resorted to challenging the parents of the children who are taking the micky out of her son.

You son may be okay now, but it can come back to bite him on the bum in a few years time.

It frightens me how quick some are to label a 4 year old boy.

And why allow a boy to wear a dress Dog if he says he is really a girl, but not to wear one if he says he is a boy?

Just let kids be kids. Time will tell if this boy just likes wearing dresses, or if there is more to it.

And you know there are plenty of Het men who love wearing dresses as soon as there is an excuse for it like a stag party. Nobody suggests they are really a woman.

I can imagine if some of you had known Eddie Izzard as a kid, you would have had him labelled as Trans at a young age.

And I said I wanted to be a boy at a young age. I didnt really want to be a boy, I just wanted to do some of the things boys were supposed to do.

Men wearing dresses as a joke or a scenic act is one thing. But school uniform -- completely different.

Dog we all know men that wear dresses in joky situations, but where it is obvious they cant wait to wear one. Dresses are just pieces of clothes. It is about the meaning our culture puts on them. that is why:

• skirts are for women, but kilts are for men
• dresses are for women, but priests robes are for men

There is no logical difference between a skirt and a kilt. But our society has decided that while men should not wear skirts, they can wear kilts.

And does anyone else remember David Beckham wearing a skirt as just another piece of clothing?

OP I think you are doing the right thing both in gently telling your son he may be made fun of by other kids even though he is doing nothing wrong but also in fully supporting him in his decisions about the clothes he wears. It's bad enough for kids to deal with potential peer pressure and bullying from other kids for expressing themselves but it's worse when the parents reinforce or endorse that behaviour.

Society may force your DS to conform sooner or later, he will be grateful that his mother loved him as he was.

It might also be good to at some point make him aware of men like Eddie Izzard, who do wear dresses. Even if at a later stage because of peer pressure he is not able to wear what he wants, it would be good for him to get the message that when he is an adult, he can wera what he wants.

Personally I think there is a lot more to this than him just wanting to wear dresses. School uniforms are hardly fancy dress are they? They are things he sees girls wearing everyday, nothing 'fun' about them so it's almost like he wants to be one of them. And choosing to wear the dresses whenever he can...again, it just doesn't sit right. I think most things you mention in your post indicate this is something much deeper that needs addressing.

When my sister's little boy was 4-5 years of age his favourite colour was pink and his favourite toy was his sister's barbie. However, he would never, ever have wanted to put on a dress and wear it every possible hour. And as for wearing a dress at his birthday party?? Just no. He also hated girls.

I was watching This Morning yesterday and there was a boy on it (I think he was about 12) who had been born a girl. He said he had always known he was a boy even though he was in a girls body. He was about to start hormone treatment to stop female puberty and induce a masculine one.

There was a woman on it who dealt with transgender children and said there is talk about offering these hormones to children as young as 9 years old. She said children from very early on can distinguish between boys and girls and sense they are one or the other - hence why this treatment is offered so young because by that age she feels children definitely know if they feel trapped in the wrong sex body.

Obviously I'm not saying this is what's happening with your son but I absolutely don't think it should be ruled out or that his desires to be a feminine character should be brushed aside.

I definitely think you need to establish why your son wants to act this way and take it from there.

Writer - Except the NHS itself says that the majority of children diagnosed with gender identity disorder by the NHS, so boys who say they are girls for example, no longer have it after puberty. For the majority of children, this is just a phase.

I watched a programme about children being treated for gender identity disorder on the NHS. One thing the professionals were clear about, was at this stage you couldn't tell which child would go on to be Transgender as an adult.

You really do just have to wait and see.

Oh I agree, in my eyes I think 9 is far too young to be offering this kind of treatment, I was really shocked when she said it!

I know it is a game of 'wait and see' but I still think OP should talk to her son about what his thoughts and feelings are on the matter and like people have said, reassure him that he can be who he wants to be and he's 'normal' for want of a better word. I hate that word.

I just think the earlier the issue is talked about the better the OP will know how to deal with it and seek support for herself if necessary.

I agree that 9 is far too young. It makes me think of famous people like Enid Blyton who really wanted to be a boy when she was a child, and wrote the George character in her books, based on herself. Would she have been put on puberty blockers these days? And yet she clearly grew up to be a woman.

I would not allow my child within a mile of any medical aspect of gender identity disorder. Your son is your son. He can be however he wants to be without having his head filled with ideas about how he might be a girl or can become a woman if he is older. You love him and accept him. Job done.

My DS is 4, and he hates anything girly. Hates barbie, and dress up. However he will dress up as Doc McStuffins, but he's defiantly found his 'boyness' just wanted to share that to maybe help.

But I would go with if it's what he wants and makes him happy who cares. But maybe talk to him about wearing them indoors only because although it's okay, people may laugh. It's a tough one, but kids especially can be cruel

I do strongly believe in individual self expression, however, there are certain social norms and rules we cannot escape. Like, what if your child wanted to go shirtless and barefoot -- wouldn't you let him? Why not, it is very hot these days. But there would be too many obvious reasons to say no.

Except the NHS itself says that the majority of children diagnosed with gender identity disorder by the NHS, so boys who say they are girls for example, no longer have it after puberty.

This idea of labelling what is a normal part of childhood is worrying, why can't children in the UK be considered genderless like they used to be, or still are in other countries?
Forcing “gender identity disorder” label onto a child of 9 will surely create more problems than it solves?

In the UK, I think the type of behaviour that we expect from girls or boys, is much more rigid than it used to be. I can understand the OP's fear of bullying. But a parent should not be telling a child that their perfectly normal likes and dislikes are abnormal.

But 100 years ago it was common, in fact normal for boys to wear dresses until 5 or 6

Not true .
Under 2.5 or 3 they did , but not at 5 and 6 years old!!

I think a lot of children conform to gender stereotypes due to a sense of tribal belonging. My DD was massively into pink and girls' things from about 3 to 7. Everything was "team girl" for her. I remember once she said "Hi Mr Moon... or Mrs Moon" and she was as insistent on including girls in every "gender neutral" discussion. She never liked baby dolls or Barbies and showed no interest in modelling female gendered play (kitchens, cleaning etc). All the pink was dumped at age 7, first in favour of purple, then blue. Pink is now considered babyish. She's still big on "team girl". Maybe I am wishfully thinking, but her strong identification with being a girl seems to come more from a place of "I'm a girl and it's great to be a girl" rather than "I like dolls so I must be a girl".

I have a very good friend (gay, male) who loved dolls as a child and still pores over the American Girl catalogue despite being nearly 50. He had to deal with a lot of shit growing up gay in a fairly conservative village but at least he didn't have to grow up with people telling him he must be a girl because he loved dolls.

There's some brilliant advice on here. I am really interested in ikeaismylocal's post about the nursery where many of the children explore different ways of dressing and hairstyles and no comment is made.

I am a bit concerned at those suggesting that there is some sort of need for panic. Yes, this is a dilema, I can see exactly why the OP is concerned and it is a little unusual but it is NOT that strange or unheard of, it really, really isn't. I actually remembered this morning that I also taught another child, a girl, who was a total tomboy and was always included with other boys in school as "one of the crowd". She dressed in a boyish way, was amazing at football, total tomboy. Now she is a confident, happy young woman who is gay.

In my own experience of working with hundreds of children and in working in the translgbt community this kind of experience in childhood is very common and the vast majority of those who feel this way do not become transgender as adults. As many have said, even if this were the case op's son is nowhere near old enough to have such a diagnosis and so much could change as he grows older.

I like threads like this because it makes me understand it more, myself. I really wouldn't know what I'd do if my DS would want to wear dresses/said he wanted to be a girl. I'd be more upset he hated the body he was in, than the fact he wanted to wear a frock! I'd take him to talk to someone as whynow said.
Also, around 5 (if you read books/articles on child development) is when children start understanding that they are a girl/boy because a lot of boys see mummy or even baby sister and might say "why don't they have a willy?!" and mummy will say "because she's a girl, only boys have willies" or something like that and they become more self aware. Of course he knows he's a boy. He may just be more self aware than other children and be uncomfortable with his body. You can't be entirely sure until he does have a sit down with someone and talk about it. He could even talk to you, OP as at 5 they don't really get embarrassed at conversations like this and are less likely to keep it bottled in.
Good luck, op, hope everything works out for you

I posted about a similar thing a while back, my dd (year 2 now) has been in a class with a little boy since reception who only wears girls clothes, like everything girly I.e hello kitty, barbie etc and attends fancy dress parties/school dress up days in full princess gear along with wigs etc! And only plays with girls and insists his name is "Nathan Barbie" (name changed)

All the children in my dd's class just seen to accept this! Never heard anything negative cone from any if them.

I have thought about this a lot and I do think it's a good thing his parents are supportive and just allowing him to be who he is, though I would personally worry myself what bullying etc the child may experiance as he becomes older because let's face it kids can be nasty!

You sound very level headed and supportive which is good, I'm sure it would not be a good idea to try and force things on your son just because it's apprantly "boys things"