Boys in girls' clothing - how far is too far?

[lecce]

Before I start, I want to make it clear that I am not looking for congratulations for being a 'liberal parent.' This post is a genuine request for advice and, yes, it's here partly for traffic, but I am certainly asking whether I am, or would be, UR to be going as far as I am.

DS2 (nearly 5, YR) has been into the princess dresses, pink accessories etc for a couple of years now. It shows no signs of abating, but shifts focus - has gone through Hello Kitty, female Horrible Histories characters, Frozen, Paloma Faith...

His latest craze is a girls' school uniform summer dress, which we finally gave in and got him at the weekend. He wants to wear it in the evenings and at weekends. We discussed with him the risk of running into classmates, but he insists he doesn't mind if they comment/laugh.

This is what concerns me - the reactions of peers. He is very shy and seems to have only one friend in his class. She was at nursery with him and the friendship has continued, but, other than her, the only people from school he mentions are girls two or three years older than him, who enjoy babying him and find him 'cute' - (he is ). I have taken him to a few parties lately and there was no interaction with anyone other than this girl.

He has his own party in July and envisages himself singing along to Paloma Faith in his best dress while others, I don't know - join in? Watch in admiration? I don't know how to balance giving him a party he actually wants, and ensuring that others enjoy it/ don't spend it laughing at him. I know he has had some comments from people at school, but he has never really seemed upset by them, and, afaik, they haven't come from his classmates.

A big part of me thinks giving him the message that what he likes isn't 'right' will damage his confidence, not improve it, but another part thinks I am just allowing him to make things more difficult for himself. Even my mother (very non-judgey non-interfering) gave an awkward silence when I told her about it on the phone, and I know that when she and my Dad visit next week, there will be comments from him.

DS wears nothing but one of the three dresses he has in his free time. His teachers say he is coming out of his shell, and that they see him as 'quietly confident'. We are trying a variety of things to build confidence, but, overall, WIBU to just continue as we are and see how it develops

I would say that this needs investigating further. I think it's great that your DS is so happy in himself and I think you sound like a lovely mum. But I think that as he gets older, those around him - rightly or wrongly - may be less tolerant. At best he will be talked about and at worst ridiculed / bullied.

For what it's worth I was a MASSIVE tomboy as a child. Never owned a doll, refused to wear a dress or anything frilly. I had 2 older brothers and mainly boy cousins so that was probably a factor. My mum dealt with it by allowing me to wear trousers / whatever I was comfortable in and she totally went along with the boys toys thing, never forced me to play with girly tat.

The major difference really was that I socialised with girls and knew that I would grew up to be a mum which I did :) Also I think that a tomboyish girl seems to be much better accepted that the other way round and I never said I actually wanted to be a boy.

Sure is a tough one!

You might find this blog helpful: raisingmyrainbow.com/
It's about an American lady who has a son who likes things that are supposed to be for girls. She's also written a book.

Mrsdoasyouwouldbedoneby

You will be suprised at how common this type of thing is in children, You've explained things far better than i ever could, I hope the OP takes your advice on board.

My daughter is 9 and now refers to herself as a tomboy, but decided at the age of 2 that she was a boy and has pretty much stuck to that throughout the last 7 years. This wasn't a problem amongst her friends until she got to 7 when it became a fairly large problem - there was namecalling and exclusion from games, not by her close friends, but by those who they played with. We did access some therapy from our brilliant NHS CAMHS team for her and the therapist was brilliant in working with her to find some solutions to her confidence problems. As a result she is now playing with both boys and girls and her happiness has increased tenfold. It remains to be seen whether she will continue to be a boy over the next few years....

It was interesting, though, that my younger daughter (6) has developed a close friendship with a boy in her class who is very keen to dress in girls' clothing - and my eldest questioned boys wearing dresses.

I think, for me, the key is to support children in the things that they are and do (unless these are bad things , obviously! LOL) because we are their parents and, as such, are meant to love them unconditionally, no? If we don't, who will? And if we can help them to deal with the sh*t that comes their way, won't that make them stronger?

Sod fitting into the crowd! If they have the confidence to be different, more power to their elbow....or words to that effect! And, frankly, I really enjoy wearing trousers, skirts and dresses. So why shouldn't the OPs son enjoy wearing them too?

Sorry for a long and rambling first thread....I'm new...should explain everything! Lol

whynowblowwind your first post sounded like you were saying you thought counselling could eliminate the possibility of him "being a girl", but from your subsequent posts it looks like actually you were simply advising the parents to find out if that is the case (or rule it out if not), rather than ignoring it as a possibility.

Is that right?

You're doing fine playing it by ear. Please don't however bother with "Raising my Rainbow" We discussed it before; it seems more "Nurturing my already inflated Ego" than anything which would be helpful.

Yes, the latter.

He is who he is, boy or girl, and counselling won't change that. But if he is 'female', in his mind if not in body, professional support and intervention is best done sooner rather than later.

In other words, i would want to know what we were potentially dealing with and have support in where to go from there.

It's hard - you want the best for him but also to allow him to explore and engage with behaviours which could signal a long-term interest.

My advice would be to reassure him that there is nothing wrong with him, the way he dresses or anything else about him if he brings it up. Make sure he is certain that you love him and that he can come to you about anything, and also perhaps get in touch with his teachers and make them aware that you are keen to hear of anything which may be related this situation.

However, I would not tolerate comments and criticisms from family members and I would be telling your parents that they are not welcome in your house if they will be unable to refrain from saying things which could knock his confidence. Tell them that you are happy to discuss it away from his ears (to a certain extent, if that's what they want), but that if you hear one off-colour comment made in his presence you will have to ask them to leave. There is no excuse for any family members to be adding to your worries by overlooking their role as care-givers and loving grandparents.

Actually. You have reminded me.... DS liked the 'freedom' of dresses... As well as the fluffy trousers... He hates tight trousers. Perhaps it is partly comfort. I mean WHO decided blokes would be better off in something that fits so tightly in that area? (Sorry for the slight distraction).

His fave colour is pink (but refuses to wear purple-my personal fave), loves Lego and still has an obsession with cuddly toys at age 10.

Our kids are just super individuals! Oh he has decided he is never marrying (or dating), is going to house share with a mate, and run an ice cream/burger truck. I just go along with it.

I knew when he was very little he had mild ASD, it wasn't diagnosed till he was 8, it hasn't really changed how I treat him, just helps me understand him better. I have always held with working from the basis of what the individual needs. I have made great effort to teach him how to behave socially for example, but where it comes to liking unusual (or 'babyish'), things etc I just went with it. He is quirky and fab and I celebrate his personality (dress wearing or whatever). He is who he is no matter what is happening on the outside. Lol. (Can you tell I have faced this one sometimes).

My DD on the other hand is frustratingly female... .

Op you are welcome to PM me if you like. I have a cousin and a good friend who are transgendered (male to female), and I know that both of them felt that they were in the wrong body from a very young age, even though they didn't identify with their own gender dysmorphia as such. They just felt more comfortable with the things / behaviors / appearances normally associated with girls.

Now they are both women.

Also i work in sexual health, and the charity i work for deals a lot with people who identify as trans. I think the general consensus is that most trans people 'knew' from a young age, although they knew on a visceral rather than intellectual or social level, if that makes sense.

Emerging research is also showing that, when free to do so, many kids under the age of five actually identify with a gender other than that which they were born with, and that this remains true throughout their lives.

I think some boys do like playing dress up, but my spider senses (and personal and professional experiences) tell me that your son may in fact identify as female. It sounds like you are doing all the right things in terms of allowing him the freedom of expression, but getting someone involved to help him explore it, if that is the case, may be beneficial at this age.

Gosh. You do sound lovely OP. It is hard to know if this is a phase or not at this age. One other little boy at my DS nursery is similar (4yrs old), not just enjoying dressing up but utterly fascinated with all things feminine. He is not interested in toys or games at all, just wants real handbags, make up, girls clothing and tights. His parents are trying to do much the same as you - support, validate and keep a weather eye out in case this is something more significant. But this has now been going on for oooh, about two years! Perhaps even if a group like mermaids can't give you any definitive guidance, you will at least be able to share your experiences with others in the same kind of situation?

You need to develop a bit of common sense and protect him from himself.
Honestly when the older kids at school get wind of this (and even his own friends when they get older) will crucify him.Please don't set him up for this
.

You & your DS both sound fab.

I can't offer any advice that's not been given re gender issues, but as far as his birthday party goes I'd recommend a karaoke machine & huge dressing up box !

Mrsdoasyouwouldbedoneby

"My DD on the other hand is frustratingly female..." meaning what? A girl who likes pink dresses?

Exactly what steppemum said.

I too think you sound like you're in tune with your DS2. And I am sure you'll do him justice and provide him with the support he needs whatever happens.

WRT the party. I would be inspired by him. I would throw a carnival Brazil party with a flamboyant theme, have a disco and karaoke plus a quick kick of a ball in honour of the World Cup and to cater for boys that like balls. And I would encourage any attending parents to let their hair down.

You really do sound absolutely lovely and thoughtful op, what a brilliant mum. I just wanted to add my own experience which may help a bit. Dd has a friend that she has known since they were both babies, he often wears girl's clothes, dresses to parties, fancy dress type things to non school uniform days etc. When he was little people made humourous comments about it (they really were mostly supportive and gentle) and now he is older he is considered really interesting and fun. He honestly is. I know that lots of other kids might not be so fortunate in that respect but he is turning into a very interesting, very camp young man, much admired by girls and boys alike. He does not lack confidence at all. He wears normal "boys clothes" for school and for most of the time outside school now. Like you his parents were almost 100 % supportive of his desire to dress differently but they did wonder if they were doing the right thing by him at times.

I have taught 2 boys and one girl that I think felt a bit like your Ds. They wanted to dress in either girls or boys clothes alot of the time and in some cases expressed confusion about whether they were boys or girls (so when we would say "girls need to change over here" these boys would genuinely not know which place to go). One of the boys is now grown up and like Dd's friend is a very camp, gorgeous young man who seems now very content within his gender. The girl is a professional sportsperson who is pretty boyish and as far as I can gather , happy. I have lost touch with the family of the other child.

What I'm trying to say is that although I totally understand that this is a tricky situation I think your Ds will work out for himself a way to cope with his feelings and will start to realise when he feels comfortable enough to express himself by wearing more girlish clothes and when it's probably best not to!

I might add I say this as a gay woman who is extremely girly and is married to a total tomboy who never, ever cared what anyone thought of her not being girly and just got on with it. To her, the idea of wearing a dress would be absolutely mad! She is not secretly a man, she thoroughly enjoys being a woman but she just prefers to dress in a more boyish way. She could not be more comfortable in her own skin.

Massively long post......apologies!

Just wanted to add it may or may not mean anything. I spent a lot of my childhood dressing as a boy, playing football with the boys, had short hair and told people I wanted to be a boy. It wasn't until I was about 10/11yrs that I wanted female company, started wearing dresses and kissing boys but as an adult I'm actually very girly. Looking back I think part of it was because I had sisters and was trying to establish my own identity by being different from them, rather than wanting to be a boy. As for his party I'd go with fancy dress and disco/party games as others have suggested, and just relax and enjoy.

I guess regardless of whether your DS identifies as being a girl or just finds the clothes more comfortable, I guess you need a strategy to deal with the comments that he will get - he shouldn't get them, but he will - probably from friends parents as much as friends.

Some comeback lines like "I can wear whatever I like, what's your problem with that?" or "Why do you care what I wear?" might help him respond to comments and not take them on board as "his problem".

He obviously is old enough to know most boys don't dress like that (and many girls do), I'd be saying that some people have this fixed idea that boys do X and girls do Y, which is crazy because boys and girls can do lots of things and not just X and Y... it's their closed minds that can't see people can come in all varieties with all sorts of interests and beliefs, not his problem that he likes things that others don't choose.

I wouldn't think too much of it. As a child I went through a phase of always wanting to dress up and wear pretty dresses, and then straight into a phase of hating pink and wearing only boy clothes.

My brother liked playing dress up with me in dresses and he turned out to be both a man and straight.

Kids do weird things.

I'd get counseling though if it does become a problem for him with self esteem issues or something similar.

If he's really a girl, you'll find out in due time. For now though, I'd just let him be him and if that means wearing dresses, so be it.

My DD on the other hand is frustratingly female...

Psst... girls can wear pink dresses and lip gloss while being true to themselves too.

I would be very concerned, OP.

He clearly has issues with being a boy. I would be seeking professional help.

A five year old boy dressing in 'girls' clothes IS somewhat different and NOT common.

But 100 years ago it was common, in fact normal for boys to wear dresses until 5 or 6.

OP

Could you handle this as you would if your family was vegan or a minority religion (you might be for all I know) in the 'we do this but not everyone does and some people will tease you for it'.

There are loads of kids who know they are not allowed to eat certain foods but that it's OK for other people to.

As for the party - what about a 'TV stars' party and let your son be Paul O'Grady/lilly savage

BTW your son sounds awesome.

I had a DD who was obsessed with pink, glitter, princesses and I always encouraged her with toys, costumes that are supposedly for boys and she eventually enjoyed both. Whilst I would not stop your DS, I do not see why encouragement into other characters would be nothing but a good thing.