Absolutely furious with parents of DD's non-contact father. Where to go from here?

[chesterberry]

My ex-partner left me before my DD was born in August of last year. We had been in a long-term relationship but the pregnancy was not planned and he did not accept the idea of becoming a father at all. He tried to force me into an abortion and when I refused this he made threats towards me and the baby and said he wished I would miscarriage. He then changed tactics and denied the baby could possibly be his before moving back to his home town and leaving me alone and pregnant.

Aside from me emailing him once to announce the birth of our DD there has been no contact between us since and he is not on the birth certificate, however his parents asked to still be involved. They have been mostly supportive of me and I am in regular contact with them. They come down to visit us (they live several hours drive away) once every month or so for the day and now my DD is no longer ebf the last few times they've visited they've taken her out for a few hours to give me some time to myself. They are lovely with her, my DD is happy with them and I am pleased she can have a relationship with her paternal family.

However I have just found out they have breached my trust in a huge way. My ex-partner and I have a lot of mutual friends and today I was having lunch with one of them. She asked me whether my ex was now in contact. I said no and asked why she thought that and she said because of the picture on his facebook. I didn't know what she meant (I have deleted him from facebook) and she pulled up the picture to show me. It's a picture of my DD with her paternal grandmother in a T-shirt which says 'Daddy's Little Princess.' My ex has been tagged in it. It's been posted by my ex's father (who I'm not facebook friends with) and I'm unable to see the photo from my facebook account.

I don't know if I'm over-reacting but I feel absolutely furious that they that they have broken my trust like this. This was clearly something premeditated as they had to go and buy the T-shirt and then secretly photograph my daughter and post it without me knowing. They have in the past expressed disappointment in their son and expressed they wished he would accept our DD as his. They know some of the story regarding us breaking up although not that he made threats towards me or his wishing I'd miscarry.

I know I was probably being unreasonable but on seeing this photo in the anger of the moment I sent my DD's grandmother a message in which I have essentially told her she will never see my DD again. I don't know what their motives are or what my ex thinks about this but I do not want him to have contact with our daughter, the person he became on finding out I was pregnant was not the man I was in love with, he made threats towards us and I am terrified if he was in contact with our daughter he would hurt her. I know legally he has a right to see her but I am dismayed that they are encouraging him to acknowledge her, I'd prefer his apathy really. I also no longer feel I could trust them to have my daughter on their own, I am terrified they might arrange to meet up with my ex and take her with them or something.

I don't know where to go from here. WIBU to simply cut all contact and refuse to let them see their grand-daughter? I know that's unfair on my DD but I don't see how I could ever leave her in their care again and I don't want to have to be there with them for supervised contact. I know that on the face of it what they have done, photographed their grand-daughter in a T-shirt without checking with her mum, is not a massive thing but I'm angry that they tried to hide this from me and that they are clearly trying to get their son to have contact with our DD. Maybe I am over-reacting, I don't know. Any advice would be welcomed, thank you.

great post, wibbly.

Hi OP. Please try not to let this become bigger than it is. When it comes down to it, you are in control of everything so decide what you want & be confident that you have the right to be so.
I have to say though that most Grandparents take hundreds of pictures of their grandchildren, esp if they don't see them often. I think you need to at least acknowledge that this will be far from the first picture their son will have seen. He's their son just as she is your daughter and as a pp has said, blood is definitely thicker than water. As for telling them about his disgusting behaviour, why do you think they'll believe you? He's had 18 months of telling them his version...

I don't know the back story & how the GPs were when OP was pregnant & whilst their son was being such a shit.

But tbh unless they were super supportive/caring/considerate, I probably would have had no more to do with them than their son.

i think OP also needs to consider the possibility of her ex deciding down the road that he DOES want to be 'involved'. imagine that your ex in the future decides he wants to play happy families with your DD....possibly from within a new relationship. The fact that his parents are involved in DDs life could be taken and interprrted to give him more access or contact than you would want or feel would be good for DD.

I'd write them a letter - them travelling that far and having an akward converseration about the threats he made to you sounds a recipe for high emotion and tension on both sides... I imagine they would try to defend/deflect his behaviour as a knee jerk reaction to protect their child, which will raise the red mist with you and both parties are likely to say things they will regret (them defending him or denying it happened etc).

A letter can be reworded to say that you've become aware of this photo, that you find it disrespectful and inappropriate to post photos of DD on facebook, let alone with a tshirt that is clearly misrepresenting the situation and tagging her father in it. Say you'd spared them the details, but outline what happened and that if he doesn't want to be part of your daughter's life of his own accord then that is his decision. He can't be strongarmed into feeling a responsibility and love for her, that needs to come from him.

Say that this trust means you won't be letting them have her unsupervised, but they can still visit and have a relationship with her... maybe suggest the 6w thing or just say you need to agree to timings for each visit.

The letter doens't need to be blaming, angry, upset etc... just putting your perspective forward and setting the rules going forward.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I feel for you. My ExH has verbal absued my DD and currently only has supervised access to her as a result DD. I also have had his parents lie to me about if he is seeing DD when they see her or not.
I have had legal advice is it is a very messy case involving court orders.
Dealing with the two issues if your Ex does want to be involved your DD has a right to a relationship with him whether you want it or not. A court would advise a gradually increasing relationship starting with supervised contact and eventually leading to unsupervised. Getting your head around this is very important as you will be dealt with much more sympathetically if you acknowledge this and are seen to be working towards it.
Your DD's grandparents as others have said I would write a letter to them explaining how hurt you were when a third party showed you this photo. And set rules going forward.
Don't mudsling at your Ex they won't believe you my Ex's parents still believe DD is lying even when professionals have told them that they feel she is telling the truth.
It is so hard, but as parents we have no rights only responsabilities and one of those is to help our children have a good relationship with both parents.

How rotten for you and how anxious you must feel.

Firstly, I don't think you'll do yourself any favours stressing over whether this was deliberate or misguided on their part, but I suggest you calmly and firmly draw the line in the sand concerning unwanted behaviours. Putting photos of your child on social media without your consent is unacceptable, perhaps they don't understand why. Sure, they're proud of your dd, so suggest other ways they might share their happiness.

Secondly, I would be firm about the position of their son and keep it cordial rather than overly friendly. You do not really know these people, and hoping they will be decent because you are the mother of their grandchild is naive: speak to a lawyer. I'm sure you're familiar with "Hope for the best but plan for the worst". Grandparents can get access rights so it's better you understand how they get them to help you avoid matters going in that direction.

What a horrible situation

I feel for you OP. My ML betrayed me regarding my children with my own mother. I wish I had dealt with it as seriously as you have in your situation.

Hang on a second.

She does not currently have to even think about what a court would order.

He has taken no steps at all towards even acknowledging his child let alone asking to see her.as far as anybody is aware he does not want to see her and has no interest in knowing her.

And the gp's can't just apply for a contact order it does not work like that.

Anybody saying she needs to formalise contact with gp's is effectively advising her to make it as easy as possible for them to go down the court route if they decide to.

Grandparents with formal regular consistent arranged contact or those who claim they do are usually the ones who do get anywhere with the court system

no one is saying that,needs. A couple of us havr said that she does need to think about future eventualities rather than going along with the flow and not considering how it might come back to bite her in the future (as indeed her previous trust and inforrmality already has!). Seeking clarity on her legal position, and that of the others who have already or may in future want to have responsibilty for the child, is only the responsible and careful thing to do. The OP is a lone parent with an acrimonious ex. She ought to be careful. Seeking advice does not initiate anything.

sorry about typos, i rarely post from phone and this is why!

Leave it.

You're never going to be happy with this contact, you'll always be worried that it links your ex to your dd and you'll always have the threat of cutting contact hanging over them. It's no way for any of you to live.

YABU and very selfish.

Why? You've cited your own experience, but was your son abusive to his ex? Not quite the same circumstance.

I think once the OP tells the GPs the whole story they will understand and be sympathetic.

I'm afraid I am another one saying be very very careful here OP.

You describe them as controlling in general. It seems very much to me that you may have had a pretty 'easy ride' with them so far as they've realised that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. They've been treading carefully, so that you aren't scared off and they get access.

Now you find out just how much they truly respect you, and the situation, when they have DD with them and can 'be themselves.'

Here is the problem. If you facilitate this kind of access now, you set a precedent. Grandparents are able to apply to court for access in certain circumstances. Here, you have a situation developing where contact is becoming the norm, and they are also the only link to the paternal side - so, if you find problems like this becoming more of an issue down the line, and decide to stop access - they could make a very persuasive case for a court order for access.

Now, I may be being cynical, but I would reckon that they would do this in a heartbeat if they could. And once they had that order, you would be obliged to let them have DD and there would be nothing you could do to control any access to her father she might suddenly be exposed to.

Is that something to be afraid of? Yes, I'd say it is. This t-shirt thing. What the hell?! She doesn't see her father. Think for a minute about what on earth their motivation is in putting her in something like that and putting it on Facebook. It's an entirely crazy thing to do, and entirely out of order as regards them respecting your parenting on all sorts of levels. Either they are in a lot of denial (which is worrying) or they have a very particular agenda at the forefront of which is a desire to engineer a relationship between your daughter and their son (more worrying).

Why worrying? Because he's their child. He'll come first. His wants will come before her needs, and if they want to use your DD to play happy families with a pretend son who's a great dad, by the sound of it they will. And they already are making sure that you don't get to be part of this and it's controlled by them, when they have your DD in their care.

This is a huge red flag. I'm afraid that I would stop contact, for a long while, once I'd told them exactly what their son did. I'd be upfront that it was clear that they had an agenda, and the best and safest thing FOR DD in my opinion would be that contact ceased until a. she was older; b. expressly so that an expectation of contact could not be argued for in court and c. so that they could spend some time thinking about the kind of person their son is, and even longer thinking about whether their intentions were truly in the best interests of their granddaughter.

She is tiny. Sending photos and cards for now would be fine. But I would back out of contact now as quick as a flash. Before you find yourself manipulated.

they can be a bit suffocating so maybe I was looking for an excuse to pull out of this arrangement hence my over-reaction.

before she was born everybody was telling me (including people on mumsnet) I was crazy to try and maintain contact with them considering that their son was uninterested and that they were showing some controlling behaviour before she was born.

They tried to persuade me to give up ebf before my DD was 6 months old so that they didn't have to wait to take her out without me there and are already suggesting overnight contact (which I am refusing).

they must have changed her into it, taken the photo, and put her back in her old clothes. Clearly I was not meant to see it. It's the blatant attempt to deceive me

CUT CONTACT. Before you find yourself in court with the fluffy grandparents with gloves firmly off.

It is the fact they did this behind my back that has upset me. My fear is that if they were willing to do this behind my back how can I be sure their next move wouldn't be to take my DD to see their son? Maybe I'm being unreasonable but I can't help but question their motives and whether they are doing this for their grand-daughter or for their son.

• they tried to persuade you to stop breastfeeding her for their benefit. Who do you think they are thinking of first?

Cut contact. For a long time.

yes yes yes. that ^^ is what i wanted to say!

I've read the first few posts and will come back to read the rest later - but thought I should post having been in a slightly similar situ when DD was born. Exp's mum was keen to have contact and we used to email regularly (lives in NZ so couldn't visit). As things deteriorated with exp and I got more frustrated I decided to tell her some of the things he had done. She clearly didn't want to hear it but did speak to her son who promptly minimised all of it and became slightly cagey about talking about him. I understood this but when exp finally decided he didn't want anything to do with DD she also dropped out and her final email was to give me his solicitors details so that I could sign a form absolving him of having to pay for DD at all. I do think she was pushed into cutting contact by her son, but she was also not happy hearing that her golden boy was not being a very good father or partner.

Sadly now we have no further contact as I feel in a catch22 - if I email she will tell him and it will be some huge plan to ruin his life. I also think her last email was a big sign she wanted to cut contact, as indeed we have had no other contact since.

Hopefully because you see them you can talk to them as calmly as possible. I'd ask what they hoped to achieve with the T' shirt and try to explain why you found it so offensive, considering he hasn't lifted a finger or acknowledged her. I think a lot of people can't understand why anyone would not be part of their child's life (me included) but sometimes people just don't. They may think he just needs to grow up a bit, or see her before he realises he can find it in him to love her. Sadly she is not a toy to pick up and try these experiments with, and they need to understand you are not willing to do this until he makes more effort, and especially not without you being there.

FWIW I would have been furious and reacted in exactly the same way. I do feel lucky (purely selfishly) that exp is not in our lives, but I do wish he would be there for his child, but it is never going to happen. Any extra family as a LP should be cherished, hard as it can be for you. Anyone who can be as proud of your child as you is worth keeping in their lives.

Nicely fleshed out, Brunobrookesdinedalone.

It's a matter of protecting interests and you have nothing to lose by being prepared.

The T-Shirt is probably just them trying to persuade their idiot son to take some notice of his gorgeous daughter.

It must be very hard for them to understand why they can see her and he doesn't - and to fathom why he doesn't want to be a part of his life.

I would have more of an issue of them putting pics on FB without my consent or knowledge and would ask them to kindly either put none up at all or tag you in all photos containing your daughter (as friends of mine do with my son - it's only fair for you to be able to see what photographs of your child are available to the world!)

I would probably arrange to see them at a time without your daughter being present and tell them your reasons why you have no contact - and yes, yes, he may have made a mistake (plus all of the excuses they may make for his awful behaviour) - but the facts still remain and you do not want you or your daughter to have anything to do with him at this time. Explain to them how difficult being a single parent is and that you want for your DD to grow up knowing her paternal grandparents but it is not their job/role to introduce her to him.

You're the Mummy and its your rules that everyone has to live by.

I vote for distancing yourself fast. They seem very keen to control and to make inappropriate demands (stop breast feeding? Really?). If you continue to let them have frequent contact I bet they will undermine you in the future.
The other concern I have is you saying that you fantasize about him coming back. Get some counselling so you can get to the stage where you realize what sort of man he really is. I don't understand why you seem keen to keep the door open for him - I'd want him as far away as possible for DDs safety.
Like someone said up thread 'Apple doesn't fall far from the tree'. They have been sneaky and demanding. They won't change. You deserve better and so does you DD.

I absolutely agree with Bruno on this. Some of us are further down the line and ime it gets (much) worse. If they are going to be this manipulative so early on in the game it doesn't bear thinking about what they could be like later on perhaps the apple didn't fall far from the tree

I do wonder about the current belief that a mother, or parent, should nail themselves to a cross 'for the sake of the children'. I work with a lot of young people who are the product of this kind of parenting, and what a monstroudly entitled, narcissistic bunch they often are; also desperately fucked up a lot of the time. They firmly believe they come first - in everything; it doesn't even occur to them that they don't - and that all and sundry must fall in with their wishes to the nth degree.

It is not always appropriate for a parent to lay down their lives for 'the sake of the child'. As Bruno has outlined, ex's parents have clearly signalled what type of people they are so do take notice. They may respond favourably to any appeal to behave more appropriately but I wouldn't take it as a given iiwy - not everyone wants to be a better person, some just want what they want.

You don't owe these people understanding or empathy. They raised a son who threatened his pregnant girlfriend. The very best case scenario is that they keep trying to encourage a relationship between your daughter and someone who threatened her life.

Get away, and stay away.

1.) Their primary loyalty will always be with their son, no matter what he's done. Always.

2.) Buying a t shirt, waiting for the mother to be out of the way before dressing the baby in the t shirt, taking the picture, removing the t shirt and putting the picture up in the hope the mother would never know it was taken.... that isn't innocent or just parents hoping they can get their son interested, if that was it, they'd have let you know about the t shirt and tried to persuade you openly. This was something you were never supposed to know about. This would have zeroed my trust tank too.

3.) I do not GET this idea that any mother not ready to thrust her baby into the hands of (any) grandparents irrespective of child's needs or relationships for overnights within 2 minutes of birth is somehow clingy/not right. No, it's absolutely ok to not want to do this, I wouldn't either. Go with your gut and never mind anyone else making faces. They can do what they want with their own children.

4.) They wanted you to stop breastfeeding her so they could have her without you there?!!!

5.) It is not odd, weird, wrong or outrageous for GPs to not see their GC weekly/monthly whatever. I think I saw my beloved GPs about three monthly most of their lives, sometimes nearer six monthly, with occasional letters and phonecalls since they lived about 3 hours away, and they were hugely important and happy relationships. They would have loved to see their GCs daily if possible but its what fits in with family life. If we're turning into a society where there's even instructions on how often you have to present your child to other family members to be a 'good' parent, even if they live 3 hours away and it's totally impractical and has a large impact on family life, then I want an exit visa.

I am so sorry you're in this situation, it must be very upsetting and stressful. I don't think you've over reacted, and I'd suggest waiting a while to see how you feel when you've had a chance to calm down a bit before deciding how you want to proceed. At the very least you should be receiving a serious apology from PiL.

Also if things continue as they are how will you explain to your daughter that she can see her GPs but not her father?