to aak UKIP supporters if you would have voted for the Nazis too?

[wigglylines]

The brilliant Michael Rosen on UKIP.

l“I sometimes fear that people might think that fascism arrives in fancy dress worn by grotesques and monsters as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis. Fascism arrives as your friend. It will restore your honour, make you feel proud, protect your house, give you a job, clean up the neighbourhood, remind you of how great you once were, clear out the venal and the corrupt, remove anything you feel is unlike you…It doesn’t walk in saying, “Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution.”

"I don't know anyone who doesn't want the HRA act repealed! It's a charter for criminals, what rights does it give law-abiding people that they didn't have before it was introduced?"

I get the impression you don't actually know what the human rights act is TucsonGirl! It contains for example:

"Right to Life" ("you have the absolute right to have your life protected by law...")

"Prohibition of torture"

"Prohibition of slavery and forced labour"

"Right to liberty and security"

"Right to a fair trial"

"Freedom of thought, conscience and religion"

"Freedom of expression"

"Freedom of assembly and association" (i.e. peaceful protest)

"Right to marry"

"Prohibition of discrimination"

"Protection of property"

"Right to education"

"Right to free elections"

Do you seriously want to lose these rights? I know I don't.

i wonder if MNHQ is going to let Nigellas comments re all germans being nazi's stand.

If UKIP are so full of bigots and nutcases then they aren't going to get many voting for them so no problem!
This is a nation famed for welcoming incomers, tolerant and accepting of people.
Maybe the hysteria on MN is misplaced...

Or could it be that UKIP are tapping into widespread disagreement with political classes. Maybe racism/bigoted/narrow minded views ARE more prevalent than most of us would care to admit. Sad, but I'm beginning to wonder.
In RL I have discussed with various friends/colleagues/family and although many are not open about their voting intentions they find the constant media focus on UKIPs failings almost a perverse attraction...ie if the other parties/media, who have their own share of fruitloops, are so quick to flag up everything they must be worried therefore UKIP are then worth a second look!

Many people have expressed concern that the move to university training has changed the opportunities for those born with a vocational calling who wish to provide the crucial core nursing care. UKIP will therefore restore hospital-based vocational training, similar to the old State Enrolled Nurse (SEN) system.

This worries me. Source: www.keithrowe.info/policies/nhs-policy/

Vocational training for nurses? Like health care assistants/community carers receive. They can start work unqualified, inexperienced with little to no understanding of what the job involves. And what happens then? Vocational training = cheaper staff nurses. Cheaper nurses will then drive down the wages of HCA's. Or, there won't be such a wage gap between nurse and HCA but with much larger differences in responsibility. People won't bother training to be a nurse due to the low wage and lack of professional qualification. We already have a gulf between the nurses we have and the nurses we need so why make it worse.

Public health expenditure will be limited to those areas where there is a risk to the wider population (e.g. notifiable diseases and their containment) but will not include campaigns to try to tell people what choices to make in their lifestyle. (e.g. stop smoking, 5 a day, exercise).

From the same source as above. Why not include campaigns? If we do not educate our society, it will only end up costing the NHS more. That's the general idea of these campaigns.

In 2010, UKIP stated that they would seek to have a Royal Commission investigate whether or not climate change is man-made, to scrap wind farm subsidies, ban the showing of the global warming film An Inconvenient Truth in schools, and ban use of public money by local authorities on climate change-related efforts.

On Any Questions, Nigel Farage described plans to increase the use of wind energy as "loopy" and said it would lead to Britain being covered "in ugly disgusting ghastly windmills" that would not satisfactorily provide for Britain's energy needs.

They not only actively discourage spending or raising awareness of climate change but also claim scientific research is wrong and disbelieve human behaviour has contributed to climate change.

Along with the fact that being part of the EU has meant I can speak to family and friends in another European country for not much more than a phone call to next door, I won't be voting UKIP.

"I get the impression you don't actually know what the human rights act is TucsonGirl! sad It contains for example:

"Right to Life" ("you have the absolute right to have your life protected by law...")

"Prohibition of torture"

"Prohibition of slavery and forced labour"

"Right to liberty and security"

"Right to a fair trial"

"Freedom of thought, conscience and religion"

"Freedom of expression"

"Freedom of assembly and association" (i.e. peaceful protest)

"Right to marry"

"Prohibition of discrimination"

"Protection of property"

"Right to education"

"Right to free elections"

Do you seriously want to lose these rights? I know I don't."

Which of those rights did people in this country not have prior to the HRA being introduced? Sorry but I believe that there are too many people that are happy to break the law all their lives but then expect the law to protect them when it suits them. The rights of the law-abiding have to take precedence over the rights of criminals where there is a conflict between the two.

"Along with the fact that being part of the EU has meant I can speak to family and friends in another European country for not much more than a phone call to next door,"

How does that work? How much does the cost a phone call to say, Norway, or Switzerland, differ from a call to Sweden, or Austria?

TucsonGirl:

Every year since 2007 the EU has lowered the maximum cost of using your mobile to call and text other EU numbers whilst within the borders of any of its countries.

The table below shows how much providers currently charge as standard. Use this as a benchmark to see how much you could save with a roaming add-on:

Table can be found on www.moneysavingexpert.com/phones/cheap-roaming-calls

My parents are regular holidayers in Spain. Like I said, costs not much more than standard mobile costs.

Meh, nobody said the EU was all bad. But cheap phone calls aren't worth all the bad things that the EU has done to this country. At the end of the day, Britain should be governed by British politicians who have been elected by British voters. Not people in Brussels who have been elected by no-one.

But cheap phone calls aren't worth all the bad things that the EU has done to this country.

My last comment was tongue in cheek, you may have realised if you noticed the emoticon. The more serious matters I mentioned in the rest of my post are the main reasons for not voting UKIP.

If all you can come back with is 'Meh', you don't appear to have a very strong argument.

My argument is that I don't see why we should be ruled by people we don't elect. Isn't that a valid argument? The EU should just be a trading block, and if not that, it shouldn't exist at all. I don't want to live in any kind of federal superstate akin to the US (which I firmly believe will dissolve within the next 30 years).

Britain should be governed by British politicians who have been elected by British voters.

What if you aren't British?

Depends.

Would you ask a similar question of supporters of a far-left party?

Rights of people with disabilities

People with disabilities represent around one-sixth of the EU's overall working-age population, but their employment rate is comparatively low. Disabled people are almost twice as likely to be inactive as non-disabled people. Yet with a little more help millions of disabled Europeans could enter or re-enter the jobs market.

The European Commission supports the inclusion of children with disabilities in mainstream education. It has launched several educational initiatives for disabled people. These include the European Agency for Development in Special Needs Education as well as a specific study group on disability and lifelong learning.

Parental leave

Under the new provisions of the directive:

male and female workers have individual entitlement to parental leave on the grounds of the birth or adoption of a child, enabling them to take care of the child for at least four months ; at least one of the four months cannot be transferred to the other parent under any circumstances, i.e. it is reserved for each parent.

As an EU citizen, if you unexpectedly fall ill during a temporary stay abroad - whether on holiday, a business trip or to study - you are entitled to any medical treatment that can't wait until you get home. You have the same rights to health care as people insured in the country you are in.

ec.europa.eu/information_society/activities/sustainable_growth/funding/projects/index_en.htm - link to funded projects from EU.

All these above have been taken from the EU website. Please tell me Tucson, what about the above offends you so much?

Nothing, but I can't see how any of it requires being a member of the EU. We are in a democracy. The EU can't do anything that we couldn't do ourselves.

Why do you pretend that this is actually the result of ten million Gurkhas or some such laughably ridiculous propaganda?

The classic response of those unable to present a viable argument. Make up what the other person said and then ridicule them for what they didn't say.

But what about UK families who move elsewhere for work? Why can't they take advantage of being entitled to fair parental/maternity leave like in this country? How do you know that fair parental/maternity leave would be as it is in this country if we weren't part of the EU?

What if your family member needed emergency healthcare whilst on holiday not covered by their health insurance?

How do we obtain funding for projects that our own government can't afford to provide? In my work, the NHS, staff who fall into payscale bands 1-4 can access EU funding for university level courses, attend career enhancing skill sessions and improve their employability/professional development. They wouldn't be able to do that if EU didn't fund because in the NHS, government funding is mainly provided to staff above pay scale band 5. How is that fair to lower paid NHS workers?

In 2010, UKIP stated that they would seek to have a Royal Commission investigate whether or not climate change is man-made

In its way, I almost look forward to that one. Either the membership of the Commission would be ruthlessly manipulated to try to ensure that it came out with the result UKIP wants, or they would scrabble around like mad things to suppress its findings. Only, knowing UKIP, they'd be too incompetent to do that properly.

Still, they're not Fascists, are they, so we know they wouldn't do anything at all to stop the Press from reporting the debacle, don't we?

Tucson asks which of the rights protected as a result of the HRA we didn't have beforehand. Not going through it comprehensively, but how about:

Right to life: we had capital punishment, albeit in a greatly reduced form after 1965. It was much more difficult to secure proper investigation of deaths at the hands of the state until people could use the HRA to force inquests.
Prohibition of discrimination: discrimination in relation to race, gender and discrimination, was prohibited prior to the HRA, but we have much greater protection against discrimination on other grounds now.
Right to liberty: has led to much better protection for people deprived of liberty, e.g. by being detained in hospitals.
Prohibition of slavery: has led to improved action against trafficking and to protect the rights of the victims.
Right to family life: led, for example, to the upholding of the rights of a very disabled woman to be cared for at home rather than in an institution.

And many, many more examples.

Icimoi I would hope any research made into climate change by UKIP would be handled correctly, following procedure and backed up by reputable science. Any report which appears non-reputable (MMR and Autism, anyone?) will be taken with a huge handful of salt.

I still can't find anything which makes me want to support UKIP. In fact, giving away my location, this is one of the main reasons I want to stay in the EU:

www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Let-Cornwall-decide-EU-millions-says-Brussels/story-21086841-detail/story.html

"But what about UK families who move elsewhere for work? Why can't they take advantage of being entitled to fair parental/maternity leave like in this country? How do you know that fair parental/maternity leave would be as it is in this country if we weren't part of the EU?

What if your family member needed emergency healthcare whilst on holiday not covered by their health insurance?

How do we obtain funding for projects that our own government can't afford to provide? In my work, the NHS, staff who fall into payscale bands 1-4 can access EU funding for university level courses, attend career enhancing skill sessions and improve their employability/professional development. They wouldn't be able to do that if EU didn't fund because in the NHS, government funding is mainly provided to staff above pay scale band 5. How is that fair to lower paid NHS workers?"

A) People move to non-EU countries for work as well as EU ones. Individual countries would set their own bill of rights

What "projects our own government can't afford to provide"? We contribute more to the EU than we get back!

Tucson you said - What "projects our own government can't afford to provide"?

Previous comment of mine - In my work, the NHS, staff who fall into payscale bands 1-4 can access EU funding for university level courses, attend career enhancing skill sessions and improve their employability/professional development. They wouldn't be able to do that if EU didn't fund because in the NHS, government funding is mainly provided to staff above pay scale band 5.

There's an example which already answers the question you just asked. If you wish to discuss or debate, please read properly first.

And also, www.cornwallandislesofscillylep.com/eu-investment-strategy.html

I would love to see where I was born, where generations of my family were born, to not be one of the 'poorest areas in the continent'. It seems only the EU is willing to actually improve Cornwall and inject some much needed money into it.

she just gave you an example in her post

I find in really funny when people talks about recent immigration changing Britain beyond recognition ...maybe they should study themselves some history

Britain was created through Immigration - even St George was Turkish!

Icimoi I would hope any research made into climate change by UKIP would be handled correctly, following procedure and backed up by reputable science.

So would I. However, the UKIP manifesto is so heavily invested in the need to establish that there is no such thing that they daren't allow a proper investigation, because they must know full well that it wouldn't go their way.