to aak UKIP supporters if you would have voted for the Nazis too?

[wigglylines]

The brilliant Michael Rosen on UKIP.

l“I sometimes fear that people might think that fascism arrives in fancy dress worn by grotesques and monsters as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis. Fascism arrives as your friend. It will restore your honour, make you feel proud, protect your house, give you a job, clean up the neighbourhood, remind you of how great you once were, clear out the venal and the corrupt, remove anything you feel is unlike you…It doesn’t walk in saying, “Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution.”

people who mock it clearly have no understanding of what it's like to live in a country where human rights are ignored and abused

Did we need Brussels to guide us on Human Rights, as a country on the world stage I dont think we did too badly before Brussels on HR compared to other countries?

We were hardly in the dark ages operating a medieval style system of justice?

BuggerLumpsAnnoyed

What you or perhaps he didn't get is that for many people, that bed, as he so eloquently said, is already shitted in. For some people things are as bad as they can be and they cannot get any worse.

The point, SirChenjin, is that the Nazis did not actually run for election with a manifesto mentioning their Final Solution. Oddly.

It was all about restoring national pride, getting rid of foreign control, and getting rid of the undesirables who were bleeding the country dry.

You really can't see any parallels there?

And you think that UKIP is secretly planning to invade Europe and send millions to the death camps as a result of winning a few (at most) seats in Parliament Boulevard?

YANBU to ask the question. For example, UKIP is the only party a majority of whose supporters said they would ban religious slaughter circumcision. I know from recent threads that such a ban would be very popular among many MN'ers, so I'm wondering whether UKIP might actually be the right party for many of them.

d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/fo6vyles56/YG-Archive-Jewish-Chronicle-results-220313-religious-slaughter-circumcision.pdf

I think I'm allowed to be bothered by the possibility of people voting for a party that wants to pass such things as 'Mandatory abortion of Down Syndrome babies'.....

I think I would be stupid not to be bothered by this tbh

And you think that UKIP is secretly planning to invade Europe and send millions to the death camps as a result of winning a few (at most) seats in Parliament Boulevard?

yes and as we know the UKIP party is really only Nige...it will be him marching on his lonesome or a sort of Dads Army cobbled together...

Every political party promises the garden of Eden. No need to single out UKIP.

Tbh using the Nazis as a comparison is excessive; I really don't think Nigel Farage would invade Europe and send millions of people to death camps.

A better comparison would be a far-right regime such as Mussolini's Italy those in Latin America in the 1980s. Racist, aggressive, not interested in the rule of law, happy to discriminate against women/foreigners/political activists etc. I can easily imagine UKIP in power turning out like this and it's not a pleasant model

Unfortunately everyone in the UK is obsessed with Nazi Germany and most people just don't know enough about other countries and political systems to use any other comparators.

But that isn't one of their actual policies, is it? That was from the personal manifesto of one of the ex-candidates...although I agree they should not have supported him.

I don't support UKIP any more than I support the SNP - both should be wiped off the face of the UK political spectrum as far as I'm concerned, but to compare UKIP to the Nazi party is a slightly hysterical reaction.

"Every political party promises the garden of Eden. No need to single out UKIP."

Yes, but most political parties don't depict the garden of Eden as being an immigration-free country with no human rights law. That's the issue here.

Mooncupgoddess sums it up quite nicely and accurately.

none of this horrific stuff is in the current manifesto. BUT it seems that it was there in 2010 and has been deleted. I am still looking into this.

Compulsory abortion of Down's Syndrome babies is not their policy, although it is the opinion of one of their prominent people. Trying to find out if he has been disowned.

I do believe that it is EU policies that will mean our lights going out in a few years. If only we'd just ignore this like many other countries do.

sadly politician's promises are always worthless.

Good post Mooncup.

"A immigrant rapist couldn't be deported because the fat cats in Brussels thought he had a right to live here...because he had a cat."

Anyone who heard this and didn't immediately think "this has got to be spin" has a poor grasp of reality and is very easily manipulated by the press IMO.

Absolute bollocks, of course it was.

May I ask Labour supporters if they would have supported a Stalinist or Maoist government? 'Cause it's all the same kind of thing, isn't it? Left-wingedness.

Yes, but most political parties don't depict the garden of Eden as being an immigration-free country with no human rights law. That's the issue here

No its not, its about volume not race.

We have experienced a massive wave of immigration not seen at such a volume since most people can remember, communities have changed, its affected services, and peoples lives.

Labour nicely laid the foundations for UKIP to get a hold, they did this by either un wittingly or deliberalty flooding the country with, people from poor countries,

Under Labour the gap between rich and poor grew and child poverty rose.

Labours response was to encourage more poor people to come here.

[applause for Mooncup] and a spot on analysis of the HRA too. Nothing to do with Brussels at all; all it does is make available in UK courts a remedy for breach of a Convention right without the need to go to the ECtHR in Strasbourg. The Convention was drafted in 1950 (with a lot of help from Churchill) and is, in my view, a staggering achievement. There are far too many popular myths about the Convention and the HRA and Europe too for that matter - the headlines always confuse the various institutions of Europe which is very worrying.

Yes, you're right. The cat bit was a spin. It was included in the Judgment, albeit, as a quip.

The reason he was allowed to stay here was because he had an English girlfriend who he'd been living with for more than 2 years, IIRC. Still bullshit in my opinion, he committed a horrible crime, he should have been deported. The HRA allowed him to stay because of his 'rights'.

Criminals should lose all rights bar very basic ones, shelter, clean water and nutrition. But he could have had those rights in his own country.

He came here and violated our laws. He should have been kicked out, simple as. That goes for any immigrant who breaks our laws.

Why is it such a difficult concept?

Oh I forgot and whilst cutting off the poorest from the rest of society they went and bombed more poor people in Iraq.

Yes, New Labour got many things wrong. And they were woefully naive about the numbers of Polish etc immigrants who would want to come and work here.

But every political party recognizes that now, and Labour under Ed M is a different beast (for good or ill - a separate discussion! But I certainly can't imagine them invading Iraq).

So, why are New Labour's failings a decade ago a reason for voting UKIP now? I don't get it.

For the same reasons that Thatcher is still used to explain why we haven't got a mining industry, or why there are a shortage of council houses, or any number of other things....because it's easier to blame the past than question the current. The fact that we had another influx at the start of the year, and the current Govt was unable to do anything about limiting/closing the borders because of EU legislation caused a lot of frustration I think - rightly or wrongly.

I agree with mooncup.

Labour didn't just get things wrong they have laid foundations for getting to a position where people are comparing our current situation to Nazi Germany.

That's just how wrong Labour got things.

If Labour had followed Germanys example and not opened the labour market, there would be no issue right now, no one would care about the European elections, UKIP would be an insignificant murmur somewhere and people would probably be laissez faire as usual about politics.

But we didn't have much of an influx at the beginning of the year, SirChenjin. The numbers of Bulgarians and Romanians coming over was pretty small (am on phone so can't check exact numbers). That's because it was carefully managed and Britain worked with other western EU countries to impose transitional controls. Which is what New Labour should have done with the Poles (as all the political parties now agree).