Naked man in communal showers. Totally stark bollock naked.

[tardisgirl68]

Not an AIBU cos really the title says it all. At massive local pool with group of five girls aged 10/11. Luckily they were showering in different area, I was waiting at lockers for them to come back and get changed. Bloke in the shower, nonchalantly steps out of his trunks and made big show of rinsing them out. I did a double take, then the slow burn whilst my brain tried to process what i was seeing . I nabbed a passing lifeguard and said "look!!!!" He was (after getting dressed) frogmarched out and told if he came back in they'd get police involved. Creep. My group of girls saw nothing but that was more luck than anything. shudders

Being flashed, sexually harassed and car called is not unusual. It is also very wrong.

As is murder, theft and The Jeremy Kyle Show.

But none of that was present here!

I am still yet to here a single argument as to why this man's behaviour was wrong - apart for the cultural expectation/pool rules arguments, which I dealt with above.

sallying I was brought up with no nudity in front of the opposite sex, and so are my children. It is not a problem, it is a perfectly valid decision, just as valid as your decision to embrace nudity.

I am not some uptight freak, and what people do in private is up to them, they can strip off as soon as they go home, but I just wouldn't feel comfortable sharing a changing room in public with naked men, and I wouldn't want my children around naked strangers either, male or female.

You didn't "deal with them" summer. You tried to tell people they were wrong. There is a difference.

OK. I will rephrase that. I gave reasons why I say those arguments have no validity. I pointed out why they are bad arguments. I have yet to hear a response to those arguments - which I fully accept no-one is obliged to give me.

Sallyingforth - I think you have misunderstood the poster who said, "We are brought up in this country not to be naked in front of strangers of the opposite sex."

I don't for one moment imagine that she was stating that every single person raised in the UK is brought up to avoid being naked in front of strangers - surely what she was actually saying is that the majority of people raised in the UK are raised to believe one shouldn't be naked in front of strangers.

Personally, it wouldn't bother me if, as a nation, we became more relaxed about nudity, though there's no way I'd be inflicting the sight of my 'orrible naked body on anyone! But in the here-and-now, observing the cultural norms is probably the politest and most considerate thing to do.

What I find even more peculiar is that some people don't feel "clean" until they're showered properly after a swim.

Erm... if its hygiene you're after then you'd do better to leave as much chlorine on you as possible. I was it off because its quite a strong chemical and makes me feel itchy if left one for long... but chlorine is pretty good at keeping stuff clean - why do you think the swimming pools use it?

Yes treacle that's the way you were brought up and I have to problem with you.
But the way you were brought up shouldn't be imposed on others who were brought up differently.

I'm amazed so many of you are so accepting of an adult male wandering around naked. The only person naked. Not everyone accepting it as normal just that one man.

Whether I think its reasonable or not, I know plenty of unaccompanied 10-13 year olds who would feel very uncomfortable about it. But stuff them - his right to be naked trumps them it seems.

observing the cultural norms is probably the politest and most considerate thing to do.

I agree. But being "impolite" is different from being a "creep".

Challenging cultural norms, testing them, checking they remain valid - that is how a society grows. It is how all through history we have come to embrace things that are different from how we did things before - from vaccinations to homosexuality.

I am not comparing this situation to these - but really - why is this the cultural norm? Why are we so quick to jump on someone who falls foul of it? What has he actually done wrong? What is wrong with a child seeing a naked body in a non-sexual context?

Those are difficult questions, but ones worth asking.

Summerbreezer Maybe...just maybe..other people have views that are different from yours? Maybe rather than suggesting anyone who feels differently to you must be a troll, you could accept that not everyone feels the same about everything?

Strange. You write in almost exactly the same style (and use the same words in a similar order about a similar subject) to Grockle.

Anyway, irrelevant. As is asking for evidence on an internet discussion site about what makes people feel uncomfortable and their opinions on it. It would be relevant in court, but not on here. Are you remembering to distinguish between morals, ethics and the law? We are of course still permitted personal moral distinctions, as individuals, and the freedom to make them, within the law. IOW I think you are going to far to attempt to censor people's (actually rather mild) opinions on an internet site.

I think the suspicion is that the man may have been doing more than showering. This may or may not have included getting a kick out of being naked in public. As a criminal barrister, I am sure you are well aware that many sex offenders start off as flashers and build up. To suggest to members of the public that they should ignore behaviour that makes them uncomfortable in this scenario is utterly idiotic, simply because it offends your personal interpretation of where people's viewpoints should lie on some pre-determined scale.

I probably prosecute more than I defend to be honest

Well that explains a lot.

I think most of us see a crucial distinction between a shower in a private cubical and a shower in a large communal room.

I'm amazed so many of you are so accepting of an adult male wandering around naked. The only person naked. Not everyone accepting it as normal just that one man.

Again THERE WAS NO WANDERING AROUND NAKED.

He was having a shower.

I know plenty of unaccompanied 10-13 year olds who would feel very uncomfortable about it. But stuff them - his right to be naked trumps them it seems.

I don't see why it shouldn't, actually. Of course, if he was staring at them, touching his genitals repeatedly etc - they would have every reason to feel threatened and he will have committed a criminal offence. (As in my view, that would then become exposure).

But a few 10 - 13 year olds, walking through a changing room, happen to look to the left and see a naked man showering? I don't see why that would make it feel uncomfortable. It would probably make them laugh.

I am still yet to here a single argument as to why this man's behaviour was wrong - apart for the cultural expectation/pool rules arguments, which I dealt with above.

It is the probable intent behind the behaviour that is wrong. He would know that you aren't supposed to be naked in a communal shower in the UK particularly with young girls nearby. As well as not being considered acceptable it could upset a lot of people, particularly young girls. The fact that he did it anyway suggests that he was doing it for the sexual thrill.

OP - is it possible he could have mistakenly thought the showering area was male only?

Summer - Do you think some men can get a sexual thrill out of being naked in front of others?

But sallying someone insisting on being naked in a communal shower is imposing their views on me.

Why would it be ok for them to enforce their views on me, but not ok for me to prefer them to cover up?

Strange. You write in almost exactly the same style (and use the same words in a similar order about a similar subject) to Grockle.

I have never posted under that username. If you have an issue, go to MNHQ.

Anyway, irrelevant.

Indeed.

As is asking for evidence on an internet discussion site about what makes people feel uncomfortable and their opinions on it. It would be relevant in court, but not on here. Are you remembering to distinguish between morals, ethics and the law? We are of course still permitted personal moral distinctions, as individuals, and the freedom to make them, within the law.

Absolutely. I posted the law. Then I posted what my opinion was. I enjoy debating things. I want to know WHY people have an issue with it. It interests me.

IOW I think you are going to far to attempt to censor people's (actually rather mild) opinions on an internet site.

Censor? What have a censored? I have not prevented anyone posting anything - nor do I have any power to.

I have argued with certain viewpoints. I have done it politely, if robustly. That is the nature of a debate.

As a criminal barrister, I am sure you are well aware that many sex offenders start off as flashers and build up.

The evidence for that is patchy. It happens in some cases.

To suggest to members of the public that they should ignore behaviour that makes them uncomfortable in this scenario is utterly idiotic, simply because it offends your personal interpretation of where people's viewpoints should lie on some pre-determined scale.

Not suggesting anyone should ignore anything. I am challenging the view, that is all.

*I probably prosecute more than I defend to be honest

Well that explains a lot.*

It explains nothing. My views are my own. Also, I don't really understand how the fact I usually prosecute in these cases explains why I am defending the actions of this man on this occasion.

Summer - Do you think some men can get a sexual thrill out of being naked in front of others?

Of course.

Sallyingforth - you think it is wrong for one person's different upbringing to be imposed on people who were brought up differently - but how is that supposed to work in reality, down at your municipal swimming pool, in the communal changing room and showers?

You're going to have some people who are really upset and offended by public nudity, some who embrace it, and all variations in between, so how do you run the communal showers so no-one is having someone else's upbringing imposed on them? If the pool bans naked showering, you feel you're being cramped by the more conservative blathers - but if naked showering is allowed, then those whose upbringing was different to,yours will feel that your choices/upbringing is being imposed on them.

Logically, the safest thing to do is to go with the majority, and I believe that most people in the UK are raised not to get naked in front of strangers so a rule of no naked showering will suit most people. They can't please everyone, so the best they can do is to ensure that they please most people.

whatever5 - Chelsy's post just under yours shows you the problem with your logic.

Your post is full of what he "must have known" - then right under that a poster postulates that he may have thought it was male - only area.

Now, we have no evidence to suggest he thought that - but we have no evidence to suggest he didn't. That is what is wrong with "he must have known" in this scenario.

We don't know what he knew or what he didn't. We can only judge by what he did, because we cannot know what was in his mind at the time.

summerbreezer Sun 11-May-14 18:58:09

Summer - Do you think some men can get a sexual thrill out of being naked in front of others?

Of course.

_

Then why is your first instinct to defend, or "debate" as you term it, this man's behaviour ?

You were no more "there" than anyone else on this thread.

Its just that Grocklebox said the following:- Maybe you should remember that other peopleare not you and just possibly mught think differntly to you?

And you said Maybe...just maybe..other people have views that are different from yours? Maybe rather than suggesting anyone who feels differently to you must be a troll, you could accept that not everyone feels the same about everything?

Plus you have the same style of discussion, for similar purposes.

If you must represent yourself as some sort of fount of legal knowledge, would it be at all possible for you to stop referring to *Scottish law" and call it "Scots law" instead? Glanville Williams will assist you.

As a criminal barrister, I am sure you are well aware that many sex offenders start off as flashers and build up.

The evidence for that is patchy. It happens in some cases.

It is a standard criminological doctrine and one frequently applied by police when investigating and gathering evidence regarding sex crimes. That it happens in some cases does not rule it out in the instance described. Therefore there is no reason to discount personal opinion on that basis, because this is not a court.

I had something similar happen, however there were no kids around.

When I went swimming early in the morning there was a guy who would shower nude in the communal showers. I never felt threatened as there were always a few other women who I had become aquaintances with. He would always say something like 'morning ladies', so it was obvious he wanted our attention.

It was obviously a bit different as there were no children around. We never reported him but I assume someone must have got him banned as he stopped showing up.

The way I look at it, someone who prefers nudity isn't actually going to be upset by seeing other people in swimsuits rather than naked. Whereas people who prefer to cover up might actually find it upsetting to see naked strangers. So expecting people to cover up is the route of least offence all round.

I had a very religious upbringing and if I came home from the swimming pool as a child and mentioned that I had seen a naked man there, I would simply never have been allowed to go swimming again. I prefer to cover up, but if my children happened across a naked stranger I certainly wouldn't go to those extremes. Still, looking back to my childhood, I'd have been petty miffed if hypothetically some one else's desire to shower naked meant that I was never allowed to go swimming again.

*Then why is your first instinct to defend, or "debate" as you term it, this man's behaviour ?

You were no more "there" than anyone else on this thread.*

No I wasn't. All we can do is look at the information the OP has provided. I am arguing against is the assumption that

a: He must be a pervert because he was showering naked.

b: He was actually doing anything wrong at all.

Of course, I know that there are many sexual predators out there. I try to judge whether there is an innocent explanation for something by considering behaviour.

I accept that some people (not just men) are exhibitionists. But I don't assume that all men are exhibitionists because they happen to be naked in public.