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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be upset that there are 3 Ukip posters up in houses down my road :(

717 replies

LEMmingaround · 10/05/2014 17:12

It is a pretty working class street, some council, some privately owned houses. Not sure if that is relevant but WHY the fuck would you advertise the fact that you are a fuckwit? All of the people with the notices up are older people - older than me, which is 43 (im not older!!!! - ok, maybe a bit).

Its pretty worrying really that what i would normally see as very respectable folk have been sucked in by this bullshit?

This is a conservative ward, and although dissilussioned with the previous gov i have always voted labour - i am going to have to vote bloody tory in a half beat effort to keep Ukip out of the area :(

My DD lives in a town with a ukip counsellor - its fucking dire and getting worse :(

OP posts:
diaimchlo · 11/05/2014 10:18

IMHO any vote for UKIP whether as a protest vote or "I think you can repair 'Broken Britain' vote is rather badly thought out.

We could end up with yet another Unelected Parliament does anyone actually think that is a good idea. I certainly don't especially if UKIP are part of a coalition... that is frightening to say the very least.

It would be a cold day in hell when I vote for a Party that have no empathy for the vulnerable in today's society, whatever their creed. colour or status.

I know the up and coming elections are local and Euro but please remember we are just less than a year away from the General one.

diaimchlo · 11/05/2014 10:20

MrsDeVere

Love your posts Smile

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 11/05/2014 10:20

I'm actually undecided about Europe, BUT UKIP are using unhappiness over Europe as a way to of disguising their rampant racism and general hatred of anyone that isnt a white male.

I would rather stay in Europe forever even if it isn't the best thing, than be represented by those foul, odious, racist, hateful bunch of cunts.

turgiday · 11/05/2014 10:28

It is only because we are in Europe, that we have many of the legal rights we have. There are lots of things the Government didnt want us to have, that the European court insisted we have.

So the Government fought against the workers rights legislation applying that gives us minimum levels of annual leave.
It fought against gay marriage.
It fought against protection for Transgender people.

The European court has been much stronger in defending workers and minorities, than our own Government has. If we leave Europe, we will all lose rights. It wont affect the many wealthy MNers. It will affect all of us on more ordinary wages and jobs.

OTheHugeManatee · 11/05/2014 10:34

We could end up with yet another Unelected Parliament does anyone actually think that is a good idea.

As long as we stay in Europe, all our governments are ultimately unelected. EU law overrules UK law, and it's impossible for the UK electorate to vote out whoever is making the laws in the EU, not least because UK MEPs comprise only 10% of the total. When you add to that the EU's fondness for deposing democratic governments (Greece and Italy during the eurozone crisis, then more recently Ukraine) you have a system that is actively hostile to democratic process as we know it.

I'm not saying UK/English democracy is flawless. But it's a damn sight better than what we are sleepwalking into in Europe, which is a remote, corrupt (its accounts haven't had a clean bill of health in 19 years) and arrogant bureaucracy that has no democratic legitimacy and governs by and on behalf of corporate lobbies.

I would venture to say that most people - including their supporters - don't actually, seriously, believe UKIP is competent to function as a party of government. But there is a huge groundwell of protest to the relentless Euro-chipping away of our ability to govern ourselves, and it's finding an outlet in supporting UKIP. Dismissing the protest based on some of its more unpleasantly xenophobic proponents is short-sighted at best.

rabbitrisen · 11/05/2014 10:37

It is dangerous to try and surpress people.
More dangerous than letting them have their say.

This should have be talked about publically years ago. Now we are walking into more dangerous territory.

It is like a family brushing things under the carpet.
It breeds resentment and anger and misunderstandings.

It would have been a lot better for it all to be have been talked about properly, publically years ago.
Sneding someone to their room and not letting them talk and be heard and name calling them wasnt the way to go.

The country could become a lot more dangerous yet.

If the name calling carries on, it will.

backstabtastic · 11/05/2014 10:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rabbitrisen · 11/05/2014 10:40

I think that for some people, it is now becoming irrelevant what Mr Farage and his people stand for. Or get caught out saying.

And the politicians tried brushing things under the carpet too.

Icimoi · 11/05/2014 10:59

OTheHugeManatee. the premise to your argument, i.e. that EU law always overrides UK law, is incorrect, which I am afraid taints the rest of it.

If anyone is feeling masochistic, have a look at the comments on reports in the Mail and Express which follow their classic agenda of making their readers miserable and afraid. You will inevitably find several espousing voting UKIP as the answer for everything they dislike, whether it's parking and speeding laws, not being allowed to discriminate against minority groups, laws protecting workers from severe injury, planning laws, laws against capital and corporal punishment, social workers taking action to protect abused children, laws against rape - you name it, they think Uncle Nigel will wave a magic wand to take us back to a rose-tinted 1950s Paradise/hellhole, depending on which side of the white middle class male divide you fit into. And UKIP are perfectly happy to leave them with those delusions. That is the reality of much of the supposed "protest vote" and it's no good saying the main parties should try to appease that sort of mindset, because that's the route to Fascism.

TucsonGirl · 11/05/2014 11:11

"It is only because we are in Europe, that we have many of the legal rights we have."
BOLLOCKS. Utter, utter bollocks. Really. It is.

turgiday · 11/05/2014 11:14

Tucson - It really isnt. For example, the Government fought in the European courts about both gay marriage and workers rights. They lost. Of course they presented it to us that they were choosing to introduce a level of annual leave which for many of us saw our paid holiday entitlement rise. Or that they were chooisng to legalise gay marriage. They were lying.

TucsonGirl · 11/05/2014 11:19

Our government is democratically elected turgiday! We vote them in and we can vote them out! We can't do that with the EU. There are no laws that the EU can pass with regard to the UK that we could not pass ourselves.

Icimoi · 11/05/2014 11:31

It's worth repeating on here a question asked on another thread. Could UKIP supporters let us know exactly what their policies (other than ending immigration and membership of the EU) are, and, very importantly, how they are going to be implemented?

The arguments against UKIP seem to be well-researched and evaluated but we never seem to see the same applied to the arguments FOR UKIP.

Anyone? Any UKIP supporters want to come and tell us how this is all going to pan out?

LackaDAISYcal · 11/05/2014 11:32

Martorana, I sincerely hope you were being flippant with that comment about curry?

Icimoi · 11/05/2014 11:36

Tucson, we are in the EU by virtue of a law passed by our democratically elected government. And if we were outside the EU, there are plenty of laws already existing within the EU that would have significant adverse effects on us, notably with regard to trade.

Martorana · 11/05/2014 11:47

"Our government is democratically elected turgiday! We vote them in and we can vote them out! We can't do that with the EU. There are no laws that the EU can pass with regard to the UK that we could not pass ourselves."

Tell me about these things that have been forced on the UK by Europe that are bad?

Martorana · 11/05/2014 11:48

No, LackaDAISYcal- perfectly serious.........

aprilanne · 11/05/2014 11:50

I suppose the bottom line is nobody is going to swing ukip voters mind because they are fed up .with Europe and it interfering in our lives .I mean I don,t know about council elections maybe they might help there .because I am in Scotland we won,t be voting on that until next year

LackaDAISYcal · 11/05/2014 11:56

then you are a racist, but I suspect you are aware of that and probably quite proud of the fact. I've reported it.

OTheHugeManatee · 11/05/2014 12:00

We are in the EU by virtue of laws that the electorate were never asked about. In fact we were promised a referendum before the Lisbon treaty, that never materialised.

Icimoi - here is a quote from the EU describing what happens to the body of law of a sovereign nation when they apply to join the EU (my italics):

"1.1 What is approximation?

The approximation of law is a unique obligation of membership in the European Union. It means that countries aspiring to join the European Union must align their national laws, rules and procedures in order to give effect to the entire body of EU law contained in the acquis communautaire(2).

As the obligation to approximate continues after accession, the pre-accession approximation process becomes an opportunity for countries to organise their institutions and procedures and to train their staff for the daily processes and responsibilities of European Union law making, implementation and enforcement.(3)

There are three key elements:

First, to adopt or change national laws, rules, and procedures so that the requirements of the relevant EU law are fully incorporated into the national legal order. This process is known as Transposition. Although countries have considerable discretion in choosing the most appropriate national mechanism to reflect Union environmental obligations, this discretion is limited in some respects by general principles of Union law. In most cases it will be necessary to adopt national legislation passed by Parliament or in some countries by Presidential or Governmental Decree. Section 4 'Principles of Transposition' gives further guidance.

Second, to provide the institutions and budgets necessary to carry out the laws and regulations (known as the 'Implementation' or 'Practical Application' of the directive -See Annex 4 for full definitions).

Third, to provide the necessary controls and penalties to ensure that the law is being complied with fully and properly (Enforcement)."

The principle was set down in the 1960s that EU laws have to be applied the same way throughout the EU. That means all nations acceding to the EU have to apply the entire aquis in their own jurisdictions, and if national laws conflict then national laws must be repealed.

It has long been held as a principle of the EU that national legislation cannot supersede, repeal or overrule EU legislation (see Costa v ENEL, 1964). This is in profound contradiction with the UK parliamentary tradition, which holds that no parliament can be bound by the actions of previous parliaments. In other words, if you don't like the laws the Tories bring in, you can vote them out and vote Labour in who can repeal them. But it doesn't matter if we don't like legislation passed at EU level, because we can't vote the EU out and nor can we mandate our national government to repeal this legislation without opting out of the EU as a whole.

How this does not translate to EU law superseding UK law, and indeed to a profound loss of national sovereignty to an undemocratic body, is beyond me.

OTheHugeManatee · 11/05/2014 12:03

Tell me about these things that have been forced on the UK by Europe that are bad?

You could go ask the 56% unemployed youth of Spain about 'internal devaluation' for starters. Then ask yourself if you'd really like to be on the receiving end of something like that with no ability to use a general election to push back. Then ask yourself again whether you're really so sanguine about ceding sovereignty to an unelected technocratic elite.

funnyossity · 11/05/2014 12:04

Martorana: I think EU legislation on biofuels has been a a shambles with foreseeable effects on land use and food prices, they are now backtracking (somewhat), but they would have been better off out of it entirely. That's just off the top of my head.

Oblomov · 11/05/2014 12:05

I have no idea who to vote for.
every single candidate seems like an idiot.
and I can't tell them apart.
that's kind if embarrassing, really.

I am fed up of EU bossing us around. but I'm not sure I want us to leave the EU. I just want us to stand up for ourselves more.
Cameron is such a wimp.
mind you, aren't they all. not much choice for an alternative, is there?
but I can't vote ukip. because they are idiots.
where does that leave me?
not good.

funnyossity · 11/05/2014 12:07

That's the dilemma Oblomov.

I think I'm going the way of "None of the Above".

OTheHugeManatee · 11/05/2014 12:11

Oblomov - we can't stand up for ourselves, for some of the reasons I've outlined above. The UK only holds 10% of the MEP votes within the European parliament; once legislation is agreed at EU level we have to enact; it cannot be repealed by subsequent national parliaments.

There isn't even any very convincing evidence that the EU has been good for European growth. The eurozone has been a disaster for many of the countries involved (witness the brutal deflationary measures imposed on the PIGS since the euro crisis) and many countries have actually had slower growth since joining than they did before. And countries outside it but with trade agreements, such as Norway or Switzerland, really don't seem to be doing too badly.

The EU was a well-meaning idea but has become a worryingly undemocratic shambles. The only solution IMO is to revert to something much more like the original conception of a European Free Trade Area.