about 'umarried' mothers?

[Thurlow]

I probably am being. I just want a rant. I have seen so many comments on MN over the past few months about unmarried mothers where the assumption is that you are only unmarried because one of you, usually the man, is a non-committal waste of space, and that he has no right to share a name with any DC because he hasn't bothered to put a ring on it.

Yes, it's only words on screen, but I'm starting to feel an overwhelming belief out there that unmarried couples are less committed than married couples. As someone in a very long-term relationship who made the joint decision not to marry as it wasn't for us, and who - sin of sins - gave their DC their father's surname, it just leaves me with the impression that I am being judged by most people as less committed. It's not a cheerful impression to have.

This isn't a rant against marriage - it just wasn't for us as a couple. And it's not a debate about marriage because I know that legally it brings so much protection, which is not relevant to our current situation.

I'm just getting royally narked with all the 'if you like it you should have put a ring on it' comments I've seen lately.

And breathe...

Everyone is free to choose to get married or not these days. A few observations about the issue of being married or unmarried;

• We do have to recognise though, that it is really only in the last 40 years that people have lived together rather than been married, and only widely so with children in the last 25. There have been massive changes in society for that kind of swing, but the swing is not total and won't be for a good few more years. Whilst attitudes change, there is no reason why we should expect the change to be so major or total. There have been centuries of being married as the norm and children out of marriage as a major problem. 25 years is not long enough to change a centuries long trend.

-Today there is a choice to make a legal commitment or not. People are free to choose not make that legal commitment, but that choice is observed by society and I think it is natural for people to see that decision as showing something is missing.....because it is! The couple COULD have got married and didn't. -Why people don't get married is an interesting issue in modern society. Almost all of the long term couples I know are married (many after living together, most before children, but some after children) apart from one or two. One of those unmarried couples has 2 children and would love to be married. Her boyfriend of 10 years is committed to her and the children and they have a house together. He says he does not believe in marriage, but she would love to be married. She says she does not feel so secure and as if he has an easier option to leave if he wants to,meal though she doesn't think he will. She is hurt by the fact that he knows exactly how she feels and isn't willing to do this to make her happy. He puts himself first in this, whereas relationships that are serious and mature involve putting each other first. I realise they can't both have what they want here, but I do think he could do this for her.

• I have heard more than 1 person say that being married or not is becoming a class thing. The majority of middle class parents are/were married. Increasingly working class parents are not. This is an interesting issue in itself.
• one thing I note in all of this, is whether big life decisions are consciously and intentionally decided between a couple, or things just happen and they get carried along with them. For example, I know people who ended up livi g together very early in their relationship. Tenancies were running out and it was practical and convenient. It was not seen as any kind of commitment beyond a few months, because one person could move out or the contract not renewed. But they plodded along with their separated bank accounts and lack of real commitment and it worked fine. So they renewed the contract and lo and behold they had lived together for 3 years, without ever having discussed commitment. And then they decided to get a mortgage to save money. There were very vague talks about the future but both were still keeping their options open and ensured the mortgage was done so that the asset could be split if needed, because keeping your options open to get out was important. And then a year later she found out she was pregnant. Well it was okay because they were in a long term relationship weren't they.

I find this drift, which can last for years odd and worrying. Personally I think there needs to be a point within 2 or 3 years where people have a serious conversation about where they see the relationship going and if this is a lifetime thing. If one or both are not sure yet,but that is fine, but the idea of talking it through and wanting to be in that kind of relationship seems sensible to me. A few months later the conversation is had again. I think a time comes where people need to be brave enough to commit to each other or not....and end the relationship. People do this when they decide to get married. My Q is, do people who decide not to get married always have this commitment conversation, so everything is clearly laid out and clear,munderstood by both parties intentional, rather than vague and just assumed. I think it is the lack of this conversation which creates dissatisfaction. People find they have drifted into living together or having children, but have not got the security of being with someone who has said 'I love you and I amcommitted to be with you forever. I want you to be committed to me too like this and for everyone else to know we have made this commitment to each other'. It is about each other knowing and being clear about it, but making the statement to the world too is also important. A couple become a unit together. That is something g for them but also a way of relating to the rest of the world.

Sorry for lengthy ramblings. I believe being married is different to living with someone. It is the verbalised and intentional agreement between the 2, but also to the rest of the world....saying it is for life. (Clearly marriages break down, but this is not the key issue...the intention to be together forever and the willingness to say it publically to each other really does count for something)

Why can't she put his wishes first and not force him into marriage? I don't want to get married and my partner respects my wishes!

And it's hardly for life these days - one in three marriages ends in divorce.

And separate bank accounts is a totally different issue and usually a sensible one IMO.

Wombat - yes, we had the conversation after a few years of being together. We talked about getting married, as we were at the age and the length of being together where it would have been a natural thing, and realised that neither of us wanted it. We both said we wanted children, and together, which was what we both held important. And at various points over the years we have talked about other things, and sorted out legalities.

I suppose my point really is knowing that people think that we haven't made a decision to be together for life, that we don't have that intention. It seems to be quite a common assumption.

"My Q is, do people who decide not to get married always have this commitment conversation, so everything is clearly laid out and clear,munderstood by both parties intentional, rather than vague and just assumed. I think it is the lack of this conversation which creates dissatisfaction."

We have yes, I can't speak for everyone - but a lack of communication and a load of assumptions can and does create issues for people who get married too, so I don't think it's unique among people who don't get married.

"I believe being married is different to living with someone. It is the verbalised and intentional agreement between the 2, but also to the rest of the world....saying it is for life."

See while I respect that for some people that is important - for me, that's not important, it's important to me that we've done that, but not that we've said it to others. The rest of the world has nothing to do with my relationship...I don't need to publicly declare something for it to be so.

The fact is that a (diminishing) number of people continue to asset that Marriage is Better. So far, they can also invoke various forms of statutory blackmail in the form of inheritance tax and so on (especially since David Cameron is vociferously part of the MiB camp, which in itself constitutes a good reason to avoid the altar IMO).

A number of us capitulate to said blackmail, while others are uncomfortably aware we are at some pecuniary risk.

However the MiB camp continues to assert that we are In the Wrong, and also that if one partner wants to get married the other should be forced to agree to do something that makes them feel very uncomfortable. This usually goes hand in hand with an insistence that it's men who don't want to get married and women who do.

The thing that DP found most hurtful was that a lot of his friends aimed that DD wasn't planned. We'd been a couple for 10 years at that point, and owned a house together, and I had just turned 30. We had been talking about a future with children together in front of other people for several years at that point. We had always been clear to reach other and other people that marriage was something we would consider when we were in our 40s or so but not really before. And when I got pregnant it turned out that a lot of our friends had just assumed that I was desperate to get married but DP was stringing me along. It was pretty upsetting to find out that people we known for ages thought so little of us.

Assumed, not aimed.

Thurlow, as an unmarried couple, you may have decided to be together for life or you may not have. I think people might assume you haven't, because there is an option to do this and voice it through marriage. By not doing this, it can seem as if you are rejecting that option and all or part of what marriage involves. Many people (myself included) cannot see a really good reason to not get married, if both people are fully committed to a lifelong relationship and are happy to present themselves to the world as a unit. I think this is why people might assume that conversation hasn't happened, or that it has happend and one person isn't prepared to commit.
The other reason is that many relationships where people are living together are not committed relationships. The commitment in reality does not extend beyond the tenancy. People sometimes live with people they have literally known weeks or days...it is very common and clearly does not denote commitment. It appears to be keeping options open....again, because a more definite option is available.

Mother inferior, I don't think a separate bank account is a different issue. Early in relationships when people live together, they often keep separate bank accounts in case something goes wrong, so they have full control of their own money. It is about maintaining control. In a committed, mature relationship, people are happy to have joint finances, because they are a unit and so their possessions are collectively owned. I see a desire to retain full control of ones money, as an inability to fully commit or to trust the other person with everything. Regardless of whether it is within marriage or not, I would be interested to know how maintaining separate control of money shows full trust of someone else.

No, that's in your view of a committed and mature relationship. The whole point of this thread is that people run their relationships differently. It is important to respect that, I think.

I could explain the complexity of my domestic and professional finances, as well as my partner's and my very different attitudes to money, but I really don't fancy another lecture.

"In a committed, mature relationship, people are happy to have joint finances, because they are a unit and so their possessions are collectively owned. I see a desire to retain full control of ones money, as an inability to fully commit or to trust the other person with everything."

I agree with you, but, I see thread after thread on here with married couples and separate bank accounts and unequal distribution of money - so it is a different issue really.

But wombat, I know people who got married not to make a lifetime commitment but because they wanted to be a 'wife' to a particular man, for the possessive element of marriage.

I don't assume from that they all marriages are based on a sort of jealous possession.

Why extrapolate and assume that all unmarried couples are less committed?

And why, as has been said repeatedly on this thread, and is really my point, do we have to justify why we aren't married?

(I'm not saying we have to, no one has to do anything they won't want to, but the onus really does seem to be a need to justify not getting married, whereas very few people are asked to justify a marriage - bar the poster above who is in her early 20s, and questioning her marriage is just as rude)

X-posts - in general on MN, the couples I see who have money issues are married couples with a SAHM and the husband controlling the money.

Yes, I agree that both married and unmarried couples have separate and joint finances, so it is a different issue to the marriage issue per se.
I am interested in the idea of people being in clearly communicated, vocalised relationships and the signs of unity. Finances is just one of those signs, but I think often speaks volumes even if we are unaware of it....where our money is, there our heart is,kind of thing.
Other things I would expect to see might include one person being willing and happy to make significant sacrifices for the other,such as giving up a job and moving house so the other has a career opportunity, or doing a dreary domestic task year in year out, to save the other person from having to do it....from choice, not obligation. I recognise this things could happen within a married or unmarried relationship.
I think that is most cases (and I won't say all) that marriage creates a context which allows people to feel secure and that this then allows them to commit themselves to the other person more. feeling secure is very very important and is a key thing in thriving relationships. I can see that some unmarried people have this level of security, but I do know many who just don't. They just have an ounce of doubt about the commitment of the other person towards them, which makes them a little insecure and then not quite so able to be giving themselves. And I do know that many married people often feel insecure too, and rightly so when we hear about all the break downs.

Motherininferior, sorry if you felt I was lecturing. I only intendedntonraise some observations and thoughts. Today, it is the PC thing to say that marriage is no different to living with someone. I do believe it is different. Marriage can be awful, but that doesn't diminish it's possibility to be marvellous and to be a wonderful opportunity for people to give themselves to each other in total security. I realise that sounds sickly, but I fully believe it.

No one is forced to justify themselves.

I think several things lead to people feeling they have to.

• marriage has been what people have done for centuries. Just 40 years into people cohabiting, without it being shocking, makes it still relatively new. Therefore people are still attuned to marriage as the normal thing and are interested in why people choosing the less trodden path are doing so....and those treading the less trodden path are aware they are doing so and so feel they want to explain themselves. They don't have to, but feel others want to know why.
• in many families, there are older members who are traditional and keen on marriage, so many unmarried people HAVE had to explain their choices to mothers/father/grandparents etc who are a bit disappointed. It leaves them with a feeling that everyone is critical, which in fact they are not.
• perhaps the issue is more sensitive when. Children are involved. People want the give their children the best start and for them to not experience any discrimination or difficulty. They feel being unmarried or parents having different names etc might lead to some kind of unkind behaviour/attitudes towards children. They don't want their children to be seen as having parents who have many relationships and worry that being unmarried might be perceived as indicating this...so they feel the need to justify themselves, to show that their relationship is as committed and stable as married people's. Perhaps it is so their children hear this message too, because perhaps the children hear the idea that their mum and dad don't love each other, or other nonsense....and the parents understandably don't want their children to have any sense of this at all, so rather than ignore prejudices, feel the need to justify their choices, to make their children feel secure.

At the end of the day, choosing the option less seen as the norm or the tradition puts people in a position where they feel they are seen as different. They certainly don't have to justify themselves, but by simply having chosen the less well worn path, people often do end up justifying themselves.

"No one is forced to justify themselves."

On this thread no, I've chosen to take part in this discussion.

In RL though - if someone asks very bluntly why you haven't got married it's very hard to answer that in a way that says it's none of your business actually without it being rude. I usually say, well it's just never bothered us, but, then you run the risk of the marriage is better lecture...which of course you can choose to answer or ignore, but either way you've had to listen to five minutes of why you're wrong and they're right and it's very hard to resist the urge to justify yourself after that.

I think there's a lot of pressure in society to have to justify yourself on a lot of things. I feel I spend a lot of time apologising for who I am and what I do.

Tabu, I guess it is simply that in certain groups, the majority still marry and people are interested/nosy about why others choose differently to themselves.
I can see what you mean how it is hard not to end up justifying yourself. Big a stranger asked, you could just say 'mind your own business" but its hard to say that to friends. They probably are genuinely interested. It is galling if they then lecture you and I guess what you are doing is defending yourself.
I know loads and loads of couples, but only 2 who are unmarried in long term relationships. 1 would say she is very happy with her man and children, but would love to be married, but her partner doesn't want to marry. If we have talked about marriage, she has raised it, not me. I have sympathised. She first raised it probably 8 years ago. Since then she has had a couple of children. She is now more accepting of the fact they a not married and defends her partners choice, but at the same time is sad about not being married. It is partly because she is in an area and her children go to a school where pretty much everyone is/has been married,so she feels different, but not by choice.
I have never discussed it with the other couple. I don't know them well enough and it would be rude of me to ask. If they were close friends though, at some point, in the usual kind of conversation you have with good friends 'how are things going with Bob' I guess marriage might come up. It is because until someone is married, there is always another stage for the relationship to move onto.
I think those who choose to remain unmarried will always be faced with the question (hopefully not criticism) simply because there IS another possibility open to them and for many that next stage is the automatic progression

A lot of what Wombat has said has chimed with my own personal views.
I have one friend who describes herself as "happily unmarried" to her DP [met at Uni, 4 kids, pretty middle class].
I haven't really asked her about this - it's not my business- but to others she's said that she and her DP are together because they want to be and not because of a marriage contract.

If someone asks me how it's going with DP it would never occur to me to mention marriage!

"I can see what you mean how it is hard not to end up justifying yourself. Big a stranger asked, you could just say 'mind your own business" but its hard to say that to friends. They probably are genuinely interested. It is galling if they then lecture you and I guess what you are doing is defending yourself."

Well it's less galling if friends do it...they (presumably) care about you and might ask you questions if they think you're doing something and haven't thought through the consequences, they're trying to be helpful.

Someone you've just been introduced to at a party isn't, they're just nosy, yet if you say, well it's none of your business then you're the rude one.

I don't think being married or not is a right or wrong decision, it's a personal one, like religion for instance, but if someone asks you why you aren't religious and tries to tell you that they believe you're wrong and possibly damned for eternity after being introduced to you - pretty much everyone (except them possibly) would agree that they were rude, and you wouldn't be to say it wasn't their business, yet somehow asking about being unmarried isn't seen as that and you're rude if you don't answer.

It's only 'another stage' to some people. To many others it's a legal/financial rubber-stamping. And to some of us it's an active choice to avoid it.

If you are married, you can always move on to the next stage of divorce

I remember one of my friends - his mother was widowed, and after some years, she met someone else. She is a committed Christian, bit something to do with her widow's pension meant it didn't make financial sense to get married. I think she went through a lot of heartache, deciding to just live together without being married.

My experience, especially over the past year or two since I have moved town and job and so have been meeting lots of new people and the conversation has come up eventually, has been having to explain myself. It's natural in conversations with new friends (colleagues, other mums I see regularly) that questions like "how long have you been married" or "did you decide not to change your name when you married" have come up. And then without meaning to make it a topic of conversation, it is. And while most people haven't exactly been rude, or at least not what they would see as rude, you're on the back foot and having to explain yourself.

They're not exactly digging, but the... surprise from a lot of people means you end up trying to justify yourself to some degree. I say "DP and I aren't married" and they basically say "yet?", and when I say no I so, so often get a "really? you've decided not to?" and it goes from there. It's curiosity, I suppose, but it does feel awkward a lot of the time, especially when I'm aware that my reasons for not marrying will just end up sounding like criticisms of others reasons for marrying.

I think what narks me about it so much is that even in their normal, interested curiosity, when you end up being asked "really?" yet again it adds up incrementally to feel like you are constantly defending and justifying yourself. And having met a lot of new people over the past few years at an age, in my early thirties, where it is more common to be married, the question comes up a lot... As aspiringhuman puts it, I feel I spend a lot of time apologising for who I am and what I do

But in a way that probably wouldn't be asked if I said I wasn't religious, to use an example given up thread.