about 'umarried' mothers?

[Thurlow]

I probably am being. I just want a rant. I have seen so many comments on MN over the past few months about unmarried mothers where the assumption is that you are only unmarried because one of you, usually the man, is a non-committal waste of space, and that he has no right to share a name with any DC because he hasn't bothered to put a ring on it.

Yes, it's only words on screen, but I'm starting to feel an overwhelming belief out there that unmarried couples are less committed than married couples. As someone in a very long-term relationship who made the joint decision not to marry as it wasn't for us, and who - sin of sins - gave their DC their father's surname, it just leaves me with the impression that I am being judged by most people as less committed. It's not a cheerful impression to have.

This isn't a rant against marriage - it just wasn't for us as a couple. And it's not a debate about marriage because I know that legally it brings so much protection, which is not relevant to our current situation.

I'm just getting royally narked with all the 'if you like it you should have put a ring on it' comments I've seen lately.

And breathe...

Inheritance tax. Not read whole thread. Apologies. But inheritance tax important. Useful being married in that respect - otherwise no idea why anyone gets married!!

Because to me getting married gives legal security. Having DC whilst being unmarried doesn't. Hence I'd NEVER have DC if I was not married so it makes sense to me to do it that way round.

Legal security against what? (Genuinely curious, I don't know what difference being married makes)

And unless they significantly lower the threshold, I can't imagine inheritance tax will ever be an issue for me personally!

Again, only applicable if you give up your personal income stream for dc and partner though horsemad.

I think it really doesn't matter what order things happen in and if marriage happens after the hurricane of kids and houses then it happens after (or indeed not at all). Other than financial issues for sahms what does it actually change?

Whether anyone gets married or not is entirely their decision, but for me, getting married was important and not for tax/security reasons. I wouldn't say I was particularly religious but standing in church and making public vows did stand for something spiritual as well as temporal and I always well up when I see friends/relatives say their vows. I'm not saying that unmarried relationships can't be just as committed or meaningful, but for me marriage is not "just a piece of paper".

Well that's another thing, I have never actually met anyone in real life who got married for legal/tax or whatever reason. But because they wanted a public declaration of their commitment.

This legal reason stuff I have only ever encountered on here tbh.

Things like inheritance tax and legal security are only an issue if there are assets to protect.

We own a house, if either of us die that half belongs to the DC, it's worth nowhere near inheritance tax amounts. If we split up we either have to sell the house to get our half or come to some arrangement.

We both have parental responsibility so no issues with keeping the children if either of us die.

If we split up the liability for child maintained is the same whether married or not.

There are assets apart from the house, I have no debt, I'm not liable for his debt...

What would I gain by being married?

Well as I was giving up my career to be a SAHM then maybe that's why I am so strenuously in favour of marriage before DC arrive.

I literally did get married for the legal side, not the public 'do.' I had 9 guests so it wasn't for the whole wedding shebang!

Had I not been wanting DC I would have not married but obviously would have sorted the legals out prior to moving in with my partner.

As far as I can see, the legal protection that you can only get through marriage is financial support if one partner gives up their career and possible future potential by staying at home with the kids, and inheritance tax.

If neither of those apply to you, there's nothing else relevant I can see that you gain through marriage (if you ignore the emotional weight people apply to it).

While it is more expensive to do - so again I understand why many people won't do it that way - you can ensure that your partner is your financial beneficiary through paperwork, and able to access your bank accounts and make medical decisions through powers of attorney.

Oh, and of course nowadays any father on a birth certificate has the same parental rights whether married or unmarried, which obviously didn't apply before.

Horsemad, legal security about what? What if neither of you have any assets?

Not every woman whos going to be a mother is about to give up work and/or rely solely on the fathers income and assets.

As said, if DP sodded off tomorrow I'd be no better or worse off, so getting married means naff all in the legal sense of the word. Of course the status quo could change but is unlikely to for the foreseeable future, plus we are planning on getting married eventually anyway as I would like the day and dress, but I would also like our child to be there.

Theres a difference between a LT committed R where you live together then have a child to people who are having a fling or the relationship isnt solid yet and then have a child, when there hasn't been any sort of commitment emotional, financial or otherwise to the other person yet.

I still maintain it doesn't matter legally or otherwise for many people, it usually only seems to matter if one partner is rendering themselves vulnerable to the other by giving up their career etc and living off the other persons assets. I can see why it may be 'needed' then, but tbh such a situation really isnt one I'd like to be in, plus one thing that puts me off being married is that married women are said to be the most unhappy of all, despite the fact I'm happy in my relationship with DP.

Oooh that's so romantic horsemad.

Sorry, but calling people who choose not to marry "faintly ridiculous" and then coming out with that, I find hilarious.

I would hate to think that I was getting married, for all intents and purposes, for financial reasons.

It's not unwise to have children without getting married.

It's arguable very unwise to become a SAHP without your own assets or income without getting married.

For me it's a practical arrangement not a romantic one.

I am not known for my romantic side!

I find that quite sad. But each to their own I guess (which is really the whole point of the thread)

17 years. Three children together and I would say that's commitment enough. There's no reason for us to get married. We have thought about it. Even got engaged at one point. Then got distracted with more children and house moves.

We are happy as we are. Not married but a very committed team. Children have his name. I thought it mattered but it doesn't. I also answer to Mrs DPsname for the teachers at school.

it's both for me and I wouldn't have wanted to have my dc without being married first but each to their own.

We will get married. At some point, our estate will make it necessary.

As it stands I don't see genuine long term, committed live in relationships being slagged off on here to be honest. DP and I have been together 12 years, owned a house together for 9 and are 'engaged' (although we've always been engaged since we bought the damned house to be honest, the ring is just an outward symbol).

I couldn't give a shiny shit about when people thing we'll get married. WE have other things we want to do first. The ring was something he wanted to get me I wasn't comfortable with when we had a lot of costs. Now I have it and it's lovely, but we were committed before.

It's easy to be offended. As a couple with no children, I could be supremely offended by 'kids are the biggest commitment' when we've entered into financial agreements, wills etc. and been together a lot longer than many of our friends (married or otherwise) with kids. I choose not to be though, it's personal. We are extremely committed. Many a person (as shown time and time again in relationship), married or otherwise is not. And all the certificates, kids and longevity doesn't stop a partner betraying. Having said that I support marriage for security and public commitment and we will get married, but there is no burning platform right now for us

I have to say I've never seen this view of unmarried mothers on MN. If anything it's the opposite...I think MN is much more "right in" than people are in RL.

Each to their own but for me being married is massively important. There's no way I'd have lived with someone far less had kids with them without being married. But I do accept that that is now a very old fashioned point of view. And I'm only 44!

Ah I think you'd see it more if it applied to you, if what happens is, everytime it comes up that you're married or you mention your husband, someone says, why?

So you justify what is actually a fairly personal decision and you say something like, well the public commitment in our relationship was important to us and of course it offers me and my children legal protection, I wanted it all official so that it's not as easy to just walk away. (all reasons given on this thread)

Sometimes you just get an oh, ok. You know because clearly you've justified your reason enough, or because they still think it's odd but they don't want to say any more.

Sometimes they go on to say things like, well do you realize that you could have just popped into a solicitor's and protected yourself without any of the hassle of a wedding and without actually legally binding yourself to someone. I mean half of all marriages end in divorce and then everything you own is a joint asset and you're liable for his debt even if you didn't know about it. Also taking his name and giving it to your children creates a huge issue if you split up as you're then stuck with his name unless you choose to have a different last name than your children and if you remarry that will happen anyway, and any future children will have a different last name, I see people all the time having to fight their ex's to change their children's name for that reason. Personally I prefer to be in a relationship that's based on mutual respect and love but if you're ok with the thought that your husband might only stick around because he signed a legal contract fair enough, but each to their own I suppose.

And if you point out that it's maybe a wee bit rude and patronizing to point all that out, you then come across as rude - because they're only being helpful in case you didn't know that and added things like personally and that everyone's different, you know so you get the fact that they think you're just plain wrong but have framed it in terms that doesn't state that explicitly.

So that happens in RL every time it comes up and it happens online, constantly...do you not think it'd start to bug you a bit eventually?

I don't actually think any of those things about marriage - but mostly, I don't think it's my business why a couple do or don't get married, nor do I think it's ok to point out all the problems that might occur from either state - they're functioning adults, I assume they know. They're clearly happy in whatever state they're in or they'd do something about it.

That's exactly it, tabula. Obviously you do notice things that apply to you more, but there is a much higher element of people questioning your decision and questioning your set up. Of course you can just ignore it, but it slowly sinks in that a lot of people in general question the set up and think you're being unwise.

It's the fact that they question it at all that makes you notice it though, any other life decision you make you don't get grilled by people you've just met to make sure you've thought it through properly - friends might, but not someone you've just been introduced to.

I must admit it doesn't bother me on here so much because it is kind of in the nature of the place that you get questioned about things, but you do notice it and that no-one asks the same questions about marriage. If someone posts DH or that they're getting or have just been married you won't get three people asking if they've done x, y and z and if they know about any of the pitfalls.

yanbu. Dp's mother & stepfather are not married and haven't been for 16 years. They want to get married but it's not a rush for them. it's just not for some people. personally I want to be married before I have children.

My cousin, talking about her sickeningly and pathetically sweet brother and SIL said to me "Aww it's lovely that they've done it all properly though... Got married and then had the kids, isn't it?" Needless to say she got the blank face stare.

When Beyonce announced her pregnancy, I also recall people my age (Early 20s at the time) writing things on Facebook/Twitter like "Beyonce got married and then had the kids. Don't all you girls with babies start getting excited now, you're not her." Idiots.