about 'umarried' mothers?

[Thurlow]

I probably am being. I just want a rant. I have seen so many comments on MN over the past few months about unmarried mothers where the assumption is that you are only unmarried because one of you, usually the man, is a non-committal waste of space, and that he has no right to share a name with any DC because he hasn't bothered to put a ring on it.

Yes, it's only words on screen, but I'm starting to feel an overwhelming belief out there that unmarried couples are less committed than married couples. As someone in a very long-term relationship who made the joint decision not to marry as it wasn't for us, and who - sin of sins - gave their DC their father's surname, it just leaves me with the impression that I am being judged by most people as less committed. It's not a cheerful impression to have.

This isn't a rant against marriage - it just wasn't for us as a couple. And it's not a debate about marriage because I know that legally it brings so much protection, which is not relevant to our current situation.

I'm just getting royally narked with all the 'if you like it you should have put a ring on it' comments I've seen lately.

And breathe...

Given that over four out of 10 marriages end in the divorce courts it's hardly lifelong

Do you think it is similar to the complaint people without children make, about constantly being when/if they are going to have children.
Annoying and often nosy. Arises from people seeing children as the norm,mason people wonder about anything different. And also, arises because those with children usually love having them, so expect others to feel the same. Or, they love having children and would like to see their friends experience similar pleasure.

mother

And the stats for cohabiting couples separating?

I have no idea about the comparative stats for cohabiting couples and I am, frankly, not particularly bothered. I was tackling the idea that marriage is a lifelong commitment. It may be (usually) undertaken with the intention of being lifelong but that isn't how it often works out.

Which is fine, actually, by me, but that's another discussion.

The thing that gets me though is that often it is a lowest common denominator assumption.

Like commitment. As wombat says (and I am really enjoying reading your opinions wombat), people WONDER if there are commitment issues. It feels like almost everyone makes the leap to commitment as the reason why a couple hasn't married, not that they have other opinions on marriage as an institution or why they don't feel it suits their relationship. Off the top of the head, most of the people I have come across on MN who have never married and are happy with that have done it because they have issues with what marriage as an institution stands for, and don't want to be part of it.

Ditto the surname argument. As weatherall says, 'why do DC automatically get the father's surname?' But again, lowest common denominator assumption that a couple haven't had a conversation about what surname the DC will take. Also it is increasingly complicated with so many women not changing their surname on marriage. Amongst my friends nearly half of the women haven't changed their name on marriage.

The children argument is very similar, wombat, but I don't think it is entirely the same. I think in your 20s a lot of people will ask casual questions about when you are going to have children, but the older the get and the more friends you have ttc then you see the whole gamut of problems there can be, and so ask less. Maybe you ask just once. But the moment you get a hint of fertility problems you stop asking (unless you are insanely rude) because you know that there are many medical reasons why a couple might be childless. There are no medical reasons why a couple have chosen to marry - so it's not always seen as an upsetting or tactless topic of conversation.

I just wanted quickly as well to pick up on a comment weatherall made earlier - If the woman has the assets then marriage probably isn't a good idea, because (apologies) it struck me as quite sexist. If the woman has the assets maybe the husband is relying on her income the way a wife relies on a higher earning husband's - does a lower-earning husband not deserve the same financial support and safety?

Alis, I don't think you'll ever get them as cohabiting couples separating don't generally involve the law, so it's much harder to make out. The court statistics on maintenance might differentiate between married and unmarried couples if they have had to take custody issues to court, but that's about it.

This is all incredibly interesting - but particularly how it keeps coming round and round to finances and legal protection, which seems to lead to a quiet assumption that women will generally be the lower earners and reliant on their husband, which is pretty much a feminist issue, and not in the way I would originally have seen marriage as a feminist issue.

"Do you think it is similar to the complaint people without children make, about constantly being when/if they are going to have children."

Possibly, only I think you might be a bit sensitive about that if it's not a choice if you see what I mean. Couples may choose to not have children, but I wouldn't ask in case that wasn't why they didn't if you see what I mean.

I really only notice it because it can get a bit repetitive, lol

As I said upthread, people being married or not isn't something I give a lot of thought to. I know a fair few long term unmarried couples with children. The difference between them and married couples? Nothing except I know more unmarried couples than I do married.

Horses for courses innit. I personally would like to be married but what others choose to do isn't something I think about. Not my relationship. As long as everybody is happy it doesn't matter, surely?

There are so many other more important things to be concerned about that it genuinely surprises me that some people care so strongly either way. Either by stating unmarried couples won't last or generally deriding marriage.

DP and I 'drifted' into a cohabiting ltr.

I got pregnant 18 months into relationship.
DP gradually stopped staying overnight at his flat so gave up his tenancy. It was so gradual there was no big decision.

When DD was a toddler he said he was anti marriage.

That was several years ago.

Marriage wouldn't be a good idea in my circumstances anyway and I do have an ideological objection to aspects of it. People never ask me why we're not married. I suppose they assume it was a well thought out mutual decision.

I wasn't deriding marriage. I was just saying that statistically it isn't a madly good bet as a long-term investment. Not odds I'd go for.

But what do you want Thurlow.

I could be wrong but I am not sure that you have said.

This is one of those circumstances about you being content in your own mind and between the two of you, and blow the rest of the people in the world[I suppose there are exceptions to this, but I am talking in general, and I think that your case is general]

I cant work out whether you are perfectly content with the status quo or not.

If you are[personally I am pro marriage from the religious perspective], then you need to look inwards, not out to the rest of the world.

And if you are not, you and your DP need a talk.

It is about being grounded within yourself.

Trying to make assessments about the levels of commitment in other people's (married and unmarried) relationships is a pretty pointless exercise.

What is commitment?

Commitment isn't tangible or measurable.

The signs people might think represent commitment (a ring, a marriage, children, joint finances) mean different things to different people. These signs do not in and of themselves indicate a set quantity of commitment.

Some people might make promises and not mean them.

Some people might believe they are committed, only for that commitment to falter when tested by unforeseen events.

Some people might never pledge commitment to each other, or barely even give it a thought, but still have a long-lasting relationship with their partner (maybe other qualities like love and trust influence the quality and duration of a relationship).

If commitment involves little thought or effort, does it still count as commitment?

So what might pass as commitment, might be something else entirely.

The details of a relationship are really only a matter between the people directly involved.

Having read the thread better now, I can see that you have been clear in what you want.

You cant change the world on this.
You could g round with a sign on your head to you nearest and dearest to maybe shut them up on it once and for all.

But acquaintences are a different matter.

imo, you will always have the problem.

Agree with sm most actually!

I went away today and was thinking about your question about how people see those with kids who are unmarried and your feeling that you have to justify yourself.
The more I thought about it, the more I realised that whilst society SAYS it equally values married and unmarried relationships, and feels that is the progressive thing to say, that this is not actually true in many groups in society, especially when older couples are concerned.
I think society is genuinely accepting of younger people living together without being married. People see is as a chance to see if the right person has been found, before getting married. Try before you buy, if you like. However OP, as you said upthread, now you are in your 30s you have found that you are the only unmarried couple amongst your friends who are in long term relationships. I think that in circles such as yours, the expectation is that a long term relationship naturally progresses to marriage. Many people see this especially as the case when children are involved and get married at the point when they want to start trying for children. I think that although people SAY they equally value marriage, they actually don't. People view those who are in their 30s and 40s (although not in their 20s) with a little bit of suspicion about their level commitment and perhaps wonder if they are a bit flaky. There is a sense that marriage is what committed people just do, so if you don't do it, something must be amiss. I'm not sure most people would vocalise that thought to themselves and they certainly wouldn't out loud, because we are all right on people who value all choices equally....or so we say! But I suspect that in their hearts, many people do see a lack of marriage as a lack of commitment. Although they don't say it to you, you get a sense that really they do feel like that, which is uncomfortable.
So OP, Im sorry, but I actually think you are right and people are judging you. Despite people saying they are more progressive, actually people in many circles (and yours by the sound of it) are actually quite traditional in their hearts. You won't be shunned by society as you would have been 150 years ago, for being an unmarried mother, in the sense that you will be a social outcast, but your different choice will make you stand out a little bit and people will notice your different choice and wonder about the reasons for it. And whatever very good reasons you might give, they will still have a sneaky feeling that probably one of you is a commitment phobe.
I know that's not what you want ed to hear, but do you think I might be right OP? Do others of you think that whatever we say out loud, in our hearts we see marriage for those in long term relationships as the norm.

I think you are right, wombat. And as rabbitrisen & co have recently posted it shouldn't bother me as long as I am happy in my relationship and 95% of the time it doesn't bother me, but sometimes I don't like being judged. Just like people (to paraphrase another thread I'm on today) who are overweight don't like being judged as 'lazy' or 'overeaters'. You can feel comfortable in your relationship or your skin but still find the judgements and assumptions frustrating and repetitive sometimes.

What I struggle with sometimes when I most frustrated about judgements, whether real or perceived, of my relationship, is the knowledge that if I actually explained my reasons against marriage (for me personally) I'd probably just get myself into even more trouble... I can picture the look on my oldest friend's face if I tried to explain to her how I feel about the historical context, the legal registration of a romantic, personal relationship... It would not be fun, and instead of being judged on my relationship they'd all end up thinking I'm some kind of bizarre, radical look

Can't have it both ways, I know!

What I find annoying is the people who smile sweetly and refuse to believe that actually I'm (a) quite happy with things as they are and (b) in a committed relationship with DP which we both intend to be for life. If at any point the advantages of getting married start seriously outweighing the disadvantages then we'll probably get married but at the moment the thought of getting married is mildly unpleasant - not enough to put me off if there was a very good reason to do it, but enough that the reason would have to be fairly compelling.

Sorry if this question suggests I haven't rtft properly, but out of interest, could someone who had ideological objections to marriage but is in a committed relationship, describe what the objections are?
Does that question make sense? I hope it doesn't sound like a rude question. I am just keen to understand more.

I don't really have ideological objections as such. When I was younger, I objected to the historical baggage tied up in the roles of husband and wife, ideas of possession and control etc, I felt that it discriminated against same sex couples and I objected to state interference in people's private lives.

Those were my views when I first got together with DP (we were students at the time) and it made part of the ideas we shared which made us a good couple.

We've both mellowed a fair bit in the past twenty years or so, and our reasons for staying unmarried now are a bit more personal, to do with family dynamics as much as anything else. I think that if we'd met when we were older we probably would have got married, and it might have been more important to us, but as things were, when we were at the stage of our relationship when people generally get married we both felt that we were too young to get married and we had ideological objections. By the time our friends were getting married, my family reasons still applied so I didn't want to get married and by that point we were too happy together to want to change the dynamic.

We'll probably get married at some point and if it was something that DP wanted, I would probably compromise and do it sooner rather than later, but neither of us is in a huge rush.

Thanks molly for that insight.

Amanda, it's quite hard to explain but for me it is to do with the tying of a romantic and personal relationship within a legal relationship. I think being able to nominate the person you want as your next of kin in all aspects of your life is great, and for most people that will probably be their husband or wife (though I think the French system of being able to nominate pretty much anyone is much better, so for example a childless widow could nominate a friend or godchild etc). I would very much like to be able to do that more simply than I have been able to with DP.

Marriage, however... It is taking a relationship which is based on the fact that you love one another, yet setting legal boundaries around it. To me it feels like registering your romantic/sexual relationship with the state, and then having to jump through hoops to dissolve it. It is hard to explain what makes me feel so uncomfortable about that, but something does. I don't want to 'register' my 'love' (I know that is a naff way of putting it but I can't think of better at the moment). I don't want to be able only to dissolve this romantic relationship by meeting certain requirements for dissolving it. If I want to end my romantic relationship, that feels personal just to me, and any DC involved.

I know that won't make sense to many people - hence my 'radical loon' comment above - but it is how I feel. I know you can make what you want of a marriage, but even that feels slightly wrong to me when I can just not get married, and DP and I can just be happy together. I also know it sounds like I am questioning or even judging why other people get married, which is not my intention. In my head, I can't separate the history of marriage over the centuries, and so would rather not get married. I'd rather we can just be.

If our financial situation ever changes to such an extent that I feel one of us requires the legal protection then I would marry, though I would tell no one and it would be with massive reluctance on both our parts.

I hope that makes a little sense?

Yes, It's very interesting. Thank you for indulging me.

You're welcome - anyone who has made it through several pages of me whining deserves to be indulged

Thurlow, that's very interesting.
One of the things I found interesting, was that twice you referred to getting out of the relationship and wanting to be able to do that without meeting any externally imposed criteria. To me, that sounded like, at the back of your mind, you have the idea that you might want to or need to get out of the relationship. I might be wrong about that and apologise if I am, but your ideas about marriage seem very tied up with issues of escaping from it.
I totally recognise that many marriages end in divorce and that getting out of them is difficult. But an important thing, is that most people don't enter the marriage with a sense that it is something that can got out of. They enter it from a point of committing for life. Personally, because of the way I view marriage ,mIndont really see getting out of it as ever being an option for me and Im very happy with that.
So what Im wondering, is whether you are keen to have a back door ajar to get out of, should you wish to, and that is a reason not to marry. If so, I wonder if the level if commitment is the same as marriage.
As I say, I apologiseif I am misinterpreting what you said. I was just interested in how your thoughts about marriage, were tied up with divorce. I know lots of people have had bad experiences of parents divorcing etc and that puts them off marriage, but this seemed different.

I see what your saying but no, it's not about me thinking how I can get out of this relationship, more how ludicrous and slightly unfathomable I personally find the concept of anyone having to ask a law.court to dissolve a romantic relationship. Does that make sense?

To put it another way, I see over and over again women being told that they should get married in order to be in a better position should the relationship end. That is currently the only benefit that I can see in marriage, but I am not prepared to get married in order to get more of DPs money if our relationship should break down.

I think that Thurlow hit the nail on the head when she said that it seemed odd to involve the state in our romantic and sexual lives. The feelings that I have for DP are deeply personal, and I want to keep them private and not have them officially registered. It all seems a little bit embarrassing and makes me cringe a bit.

Yes, I understand.
I guess I see the legally binding part of it as a benefit rather than a negative. I appreciate that these days, many of the legal benefits of marriage such as access to pensions etc can be arranged for unmarried couples too.
There is a legal side to marriage, but I see it as more than that. I really do believe that 2 become 1 and I don't see that as a man taking over a woman, or anything like that. It is simply that tey become united as 1. It's one of the reasons I think the joint finances are important. Although there are clearly 2 separate people, they are also a 'we' that face the world together. The permanence and the binding nature of the marriage is all part of it, as something that should not be broken.....and where it needs to break, that ought to be difficult, because 1 is being split back into 2, which can be seen as a tearing which is damaging. I am a Christian and I see a spiritual side to marriage. I realise most people aren't Christians, but still value marriage highly, but possibly for different reasons and I also accept that not everyone wants to be married.
Anyway, I know we look at it differently. Thanks for sharing your ideas and I hope you continue to be very happy in your relationship.