to love UKIP?

[Hullygully]

Every time a UKIP person speaks, they want to say rape within marriage is ok, Lenny Henry should go back to Black Land, bit too scared to stand in a by election just now...yet

PEOPLE ARE STILL DESPERATE TO VOTE FOR THEM.

What hope is there? Humanity is as truly doomed as ever.

"Britain imports far more from the EU than it exports...... So where do you think that leaves us?"

Well, I'm not an economist, but I think it leaves us in a trade deficit?

Hysteria we are in agreement that a referendum would be welcomed by a lot of people. It would be sensible to sort it out and maybe repeat every 20 years.

Very good point TucsonGirl. Of course it is the cabal.

But I am not sure that Labour could even win the election if they offered that, because I think it is really about much more than Europe or immigration. It is about a complete breakdown of trust in establishment parties. Labour can't really change their spots, no one really believes them anymore, that is why they are fighting an uphill battle and have no really good policies to sway the public.

A party with few declared policies, UKIP, has more suppprt than the Labour Party and it is because no one trusts Labour anymore or the Tories or the LibDems. That is how bad it has got.

Shadowy cabal... Sorry for being sarcastic to you earlier, Tucson, I didn't realise you were seriously mentally ill.

And another thing - if UKIP supporters or sympathisers want to defend their policies, why don't YOU tell US all about them? What are all these refreshing policies that have struck a deep chord with you, after careful weighing up of the issues involved? Tell us the policies that attract you all, please.

claig do you think we are against you in your ideas about 'the establishment?' It seems from speaking to you before at length you think people who don't want to vote UKIP are also 'the establishment.'

I think lot's of people feel disenfranchised but are biding their time till a safe option comes along.

Replace shadowy cabal with a less dramatic term if you prefer. The Bilderbergers. The power brokers. The kind of people who Peter Mandelson has lunch on the yachts of. Them.

"A second former home office minister, Jacqui Smith, said she was apprehensive about branding Ukip racist. Recalling Gordon Brown's attack on the Rochdale pensioner Gillian Duffy, she said: "Did we not learn from 'bigotgate' in 2010 that there are many potential and actual Labour voters who feel all the frustrations and insecurities expressed by the Ukip poster campaign? Telling them they are wrong – and worse, closet racists – is unlikely to win their support".

She said some of the sentiments in the Ukip poster reflected Labour policy.

The debate inside the Labour leadership about how to counter Ukip is reflected in a live debate about whether Ed Miliband should attack its leadership or acknowledge that Ukip support reflects a deep-seated unease about immigration and distrust of the political class."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/28/ukip-european-election-accused-of-racism

It is all too late. The public knows Labour. They don't like Labour. They don't believe they can change their spots overnight. Six months ago they were all mocking UKIP, but if they are clever, then Ed should not attack UKIP and should try to pretend that he understands the public and is listening to them. The public won't believe him, they will know it si more spin, but alienating the public is suicide.

The Tories don't know what to do either. If Cameron attacks UKIP, he attacks the views of many Tories,, who already think he is not a real Tory and should be in the Labour Party anyway. But if he doesn't attack UKIP, then they will just take more votes from him anyway.

The entire political class is just hoping that UKIP will go away after the Euro elections. We don't know what Farage will do. Is he for real? Will he take them on or will he "bottle it" because his heart is not in it? But whateve happens, UKIP is not going away, because the public is behind them wanting some sort of change.

Let's not be silly, claig. Some of the public are behind UKIP. Because, unfortunately, some of the public are intellectually and morally inadequate. They need pity and support, not the right to vote, really. It's sad to see some people, however small a percentage, demean themselves so readily, or be so incapable of basic understanding or compassion.

I'd prefer Britain to remain in the EU, but I'm pretty sure I'm not a member of a shadowy cabal. Unless the local gym has drastically changed their policy

Although I do find UKIP strongly remind me of dealing with my children...
"I not want dat!"

"OK, well, you don't have to have it, what do you want?"
"Not WANT dat!!! It STUPID!!!!"

Repeat ad infinitum, or until gin time.

Oxfordbags, it is not about policies. It is about the whole country going to the dogs, which is the correct understanding that BBC Newsnight reported on after speaking to UKIP voters. Newsnight rightly said that UKIP voters think the country is going to the dogs and the political parties are doing nothing to stop it, and that is why the political parties have no answer to UKIP, because it is not about policies, it is about absolutely everything.

"claig do you think we are against you in your ideas about 'the establishment?' It seems from speaking to you before at length you think people who don't want to vote UKIP are also 'the establishment.'

I think lot's of people feel disenfranchised but are biding their time till a safe option comes along."

eyebrows, the entire country apart form some Labour and Tory councillors are now anti the establishment parties and have had enough. But there is one huge difference between UKIP voters, who are now in the lead, and Labour or Tory voters. Labour and Tory voters still have faith that Miliband and Cameron will fix things. UKIP voters no longer believe it, they even think they do not want to fix things and will listen to the public. The establishment parties are more interested in policies about "smoking in cars" or "plain-paper cigarette packaging" or "windfarms" than people dying of dehydration in hospitals, old people being abused and mistreated in care homes, bankers walking scott-free after wrecking our economy, or confrontation with Russia to back up a government brought in by a neo-nazi coup etc etc

The UKIP voters believe that the last thing that the establishment cares about is ordinary people and that is confirmed when they insult the voters or as Jacqui Smith said call voters "bigots" etc

It is the voters who have really had enough who are turning to UKIP, because they have no faith in the other parties anymore. Those parties then blame the people, but it is the fault of those parties.

"Let's not be silly, claig. Some of the public are behind UKIP. Because, unfortunately, some of the public are intellectually and morally inadequate."

Absolutely, I am not denying that. Those are the bigots and fruitcakes. But the country is not made up of them. UKIP now has 38% and over 50% in some counties. These people are not bigots. That is the mistake that some of the politicians are making and if Ed Miliband and his team of advisors make that mistake too, then they will alienate these voters even more. These voters are already alienated. That is why they have switched to UKIP. But Labour's only hope is to try and tempt some of them back, and they won't do it by insulting them. They may not be able to do it, I don't think they can, but they have to try.

One party will make the mistake of insulting them. Will it be Labour or the Tories. i think it will be the arrogant Etonians because they will have no choice as their support is already at 18% and sinking. If Ed stands back and pretends he understands the voters, then that will just enrage the Tories even more and cause them to make mistakes in attacking the voters instead of Labour.

So is this what UKIP will fix? Hospitals, care homes, the economy and international relations?

claig, as many people have already pointed out, you don't solve a country's problems by voting for the one choice more disastrous than the main ones on offer. It's like deciding to cure lung cancer with chainsmoking.

And yes, those people ARE bigots. They might not think it, but they are. They are certainly incredibly stupid.

'So is this what UKIP will fix? Hospitals, care homes, the economy and international relations?'

No. That is the whole point. UKIP have few policies, so policies is not why people are voting UKIP. The people are voting UKIP to solve the most important problem - to get rid of Labour and the Tories etc.

The voters are not looking beyond that yet. After these parties lose or are forced to change by UKIP, then teh public hopes that the establishment will finally listen to the voters and solve the hospitals, the care homes, stop threatening to waste our money attacking Syria and creating hostilities with Russia, when all our efforts should be serving the people and fixing their problems.

'you don't solve a country's problems by voting for the one choice more disastrous than the main ones on offer. It's like deciding to cure lung cancer with chainsmoking.'

You do if you have had enough and have lost faith in the current elite ever changing and fixing your problems. It is time to sack the doctor and replace them with another doctor.

Tucson (or any other UKIP voter), how will being elected to the European Parliament enable or facilitate UKIP's policy of leaving the EU?

"And yes, those people ARE bigots. They might not think it, but they are. They are certainly incredibly stupid."

But this is exactly why people are voting UKIP. Those thoughts are what the establishment and the Westminster political class think of the 50% of people in some counties that now will vote UKIP. And it is because they think that and hold the public, their opinions and the problems that they want solved, in such contempt, that the public has abandoned them and turned to UKIP.

"They are certainly incredibly stupid."
"But this is exactly why people are voting UKIP."

Amen, sister.

Calling people stupid is not an effective way to change their mind, is it? Why are they stupid? For voting for a political party you don't agree with?

'Tucson (or any other UKIP voter), how will being elected to the European Parliament enable or facilitate UKIP's policy of leaving the EU?'

There are 73 UK seats available for the EU Parliament. Pundits are now saying that UKIP might win half of them. Think tanks are panicking, they are all saying "what can we do, how can we stop UKIP?", because their entire credibility of representing the public wil be shredded if that happens. It will be evident that the public is not being adequately represented.

They will not be able to go on Newsnight and preach to the public anymore and introduce silly pointles policies about "plain-paper cigarette packaging" when a party of "fruitcakes" has won half of the 73 seats. The whole world will know that the game is up. That is why Farage has said it will be an "earthquake".

Do we live in a democracy? If we do, then there will have to be huge changes. Natalie Bennett of the Greens has said that our 2 and a half party first-past-the-post system is no longer functioning and that the rise of UKIP has made that evident and that there must be change.

The establishment will have to grant us change otherwise they will look like King Canute, and as that change begins, the public hope that our hospitals, our bankers and all our real problems will begin to be addressed rather than the "plain-paper packaging" of cigarettes or the minimum alcohol pricing levels that the elite want to intoduce to stop the proles going on binge-drinking booze-ups, as they condescendingly think we all do.

The public don't know how it will be done, they have lost faith in Labour and the Toies, but they still have faith that somehow it can be done. They no longer believe in manifestos - Cleggy put an end to that with his "tuition fees" debacle. They don't believe in politicians' promises anymore, they have witnessed too many lies. But they have not given up hope and that is why they will turn out to vote and they will vote the spinners and their parties out.

The establishment have set up a cross-party group to all join together and combat UKIP. They have invented a new word to fool the public - they say that UKIP is "Euracist".

The Tories are wheeling out politicians to tell the public that UKIP are "divisive", "disgusting", "un-British" and Labour types are saying that voters must be "educated" about UKIP.

If, after all of that, the public vote UKIP then it will be an earthquake because the whole country and teh whole world will see that the public has defied the entire establishment and has indicated that they have no faith in any of them.

This is a crisis and a disaster for the establishment and they don't know how to handle it. If they attack UKIP, it may make voters flock to UKIP even more, and if they don't attack UKIP, voters might flock to them even more anyway.

Claig I can see that the mainstream parties are rattled as you say. What I can't see is how it can be a successful sea change in politics. Say UKIP do win 50% of the seats, what then? The big three go back to their careerist advisors who tell them to promise a referendum. They do that. The media crucify them. Anything they've said will be used against them if the result is OUT. What then? We go back to the same old system?

How difficult is it to start a credible party that doesn't fall foul of the media? UKIP Do have been rattling around for what 20 years? Only now in a time of economic strife are they making waves.

I think the future lies in smaller and more local government. I don't think the US will remain united for that much longer either. Large countries are just too unwieldly and the government too remote to have much respect or ability to understand their electorate.

I don't think UKIP are inherently any more racist than the Tories, UKIP's only been around for a short time so their machine isn't slick enough yet and by the same token comments like the 'bongo bongo land' one have been a gift for Farage simply in terms of the publicity they've generated for a party that wasn't even in the public consciousness ten years ago.

I don't think the surge in support for UKIP has much to do with policy. If they do well it'll be because they're the only party that has got their leadership right. People don't vote for parties anymore, they vote for leaders. The idea that Labour won't be elected because they won't promise an EU referendum is total shite. Labour won't be elected because Milliband is an utter waste of space as a leader with not an ounce of charisma. Cameron, well he actually does surprisingly well considering what he's up against with his normal, likeable guy act but put him next to chain smoking, 2pints Nige and he falls apart. Put aside everything else, Nigel Farage does a better man of the people than any of the other party leaders by a country mile. He's also incredibly politically shrewd. Immigration and the EU have had swathes of the country frothing long before Farage became leader of UKIP but before him who even knew the leader of UKIPs name.