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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To want autonomy over my body.

999 replies

thebodydoestricks · 23/04/2014 16:12

Aibu here. I am 50 but apparently still fertile.

I have 4 children already and do not want any more.

According to some posters if I fell pregnant but hadn't used at least 2 methods of contraception I should be denied the abortion I would most definatly want.

I would have to go before a panel of judges in a court to plead my case. They would judge whether I should have an abortion or not.

Of course if there was a back log of cases then I would have to wait and if it reached 24 weeks it would be too late anyway.

I would be forced to give birth.

Aibu to be absolutely stunned at this posters view in Britain 2014?

OP posts:
GarlicAprilShowers · 26/04/2014 20:44

if it was hypothetically possible to remove an implanted foetus and implant it in another woman - This debate wouldn't be happening!

You could only imagine that'd be a problem for pro-choicers if you imagined we wanted to make women have abortions! You won't get anywhere pushing that fallacy here.

GarlicAprilShowers · 26/04/2014 20:46

Sorry you don't like my turn of phrase sometimes, Twisted, though I make no apology for slight failures of nuance when typing into a forum.

Glad you found my painstaking 10-point thing informative, anyway.

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 20:55

Doctrine, I'm not ignoring it, I just don't think it in any way proves that late term abortion is safer than giving birth or being induced.

What about the hypothetical argument that I mentioned above?

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 21:05

Doctrine, I'm not ignoring it, I just don't think it in any way proves that late term abortion is safer than giving birth or being induced.

What about the hypothetical argument that I mentioned above?

Dawn,"We are discussing a woman's right to bodily autonomy, you however keep dragging it back and asking the same questions time and again."

Yes, that is why my questions are in relation to the bodily autonomy argument. The reason I keep asking the same questions is because no one, aside from Maid earlier, has really tried to answer them.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 26/04/2014 21:08

If you require statistical proof, you are never going to get it because the statistics will never exist before a change in the law.

Your hypothesis is that the two are the same. They are not. You refuse to engage with the idea that they aren't.

You are happy for the argument to be extended into post birth, but get cross and want to stick to "your hypothesis" when I talk about the implications of forced live birth by induction at 30 weeks (which is a logical extension of talking about a forced live birth by induction at 37 weeks - where would there be a circumstance that allowed abortion to 24 weeks and then nothing until 37 weeks).

So no, I don't engage with you, because you don't engage with me. I simply don't have time.

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 21:24

The RCOG link from yesterday is talking about 'wakefulness' not the point at which a foetus gains the right to life which is what we were discussing

""No foetus is autonomous until it's outside its mother's body, the cord is cut and it has functional air sacs/lungs."

Not all people share that view. Some people think that the baby gains its rights as soon as it is born."

Twisted, I believe it starts from implantation.

Dawndonnaagain · 26/04/2014 21:25

Hmm, belief. Science. I know which I go for.

AnyaKnowIt · 26/04/2014 21:26

Why do you believe life starts from implantation?

VampyreofTimeandMemory · 26/04/2014 21:26

at implantation, it is just a fertilized egg.

bumbley what's your opinion re the morning after pill?

bloominbumpy · 26/04/2014 21:41

Am I being really stupid please let me know...

but if you were to "abort" a baby at term then its got to get out somehow? ?

So what would be a problem with induction/cs

this is assuming a women no longer wants to be pregnant not doesn't want to mother a child?

And if that is the case then surely the "kinder" more "humane" option would be to put child up dor adoption that way the women doesn't have to be a mother?

Please someone explain how a term baby would "get out" other than what is basically induction or cs?

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 21:45

Your position is that one thing is less dangerous than the other. You refuse to engage with the idea that that might not be the case.

So, seeing as we can't prove it either way, why not approach it from the hypothetical position?

sassysally · 26/04/2014 21:46

at implantation, it is just a fertilized egg.
bUt it has it's own unique genetic code, it is a life completely different to it's mother.Is a teenager worth more than a 5 yr old, is a 5 yr old worth more than a newborn? Is a newborn worth more than a premmie? Of course not! So why is a foetus or an embryo worth less than a 'born' baby?

twofingerstoGideon · 26/04/2014 21:48

Why stop at embryos? Especially for sassy:
[[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk&feature=kp
Every sperm is sacred]]

TwistedReach · 26/04/2014 21:55

Twofingers apparently that's 'extending' so not relevant...

Dawndonnaagain · 26/04/2014 22:00
Grin twofingers
TwistedReach · 26/04/2014 22:01

Sorry this is not relevant to the argument but I am suddenly really intrigued about who you all are, what you look like, what you do etc! I'm not expecting you to tell me anymore that I will want to tell you but having spent a disproportionate amount of time avoiding work arguing with you all I suddenly wonder who I am wasting my time with...
Irrelevant musings.

Dawndonnaagain · 26/04/2014 22:03

Sassy. My unique genetic code is on every stamp I have ever licked. There is no sense of 'self' on any stamp I have ever licked.

GarlicAprilShowers · 26/04/2014 22:24

it has it's own unique genetic code, it is a life completely different to it's mother

Leaving Dawn's stamp babies out of it for now Grin this is a meaningless statement. Identical twins have identical genes, but I think you'll find they are separate lives. Ergo, uniqueness of genetic code has fuck all to do with individuality of life.

why not approach it from the hypothetical position?

Which of your hypothetical positions are you talking about this time? The one where all women know they're pregnant from three weeks or sooner, know instantly whether they want to be pregnant, can access all relevant services without a hitch, and their circumstances never change? The one where all congenital defects can be fixed in utero? From memory, we've also had ones where each unwanted child has a loving supportive home to go to; where all women give birth to healthy babies without injury, where inductions are harmless procedures, where menstruating children are forced to take a monthly pregnancy test, and where foetuses can be transplanted from woman to woman. There have been even more, I believe.

You've been very imaginative but have shown a deep reluctance to engage with the messy world of reproduction as it is today. You've also failed to adopt even one of these unwanted babies. You're not contributing much at all, really, except unrealistic intransigence ... and your perception of every fertile female as a baby incubator.

GarlicAprilShowers · 26/04/2014 22:29

I missed out the most amusing hypothesis of all: 100% reliable contraception, used 100% effectively. Mind you, perfect services and magic foetal transplantation could deal with any failures Wink

annikins37 · 26/04/2014 22:34

YABU - it's not just your body you want autonomy over, it's also whether another human lives or dies.

I understand not wanting more children, I'm in the same position. However, I do believe that life starts at conception, so an abortion is effectively choosing to kill your child (maybe some people might take that as inflammatory, but I don't mean it to be, it's just the way I see it). Not everyone shares that belief, which is up to them, but I don't think I'm wrong to hold it for myself.

So, yes, in that case, I would agree with the idea that the only reason I could consider an abortion for myself would be if I would die without it. It's also the only real reason I could support someone else having an abortion. As in all of life there are grey areas such as the degree of risk of dying, the timeframe, etc, but in principal you get the idea.

However, it's probably important to have legal clinics available as obviously backstreet abortions don't really help anyone - the baby still dies, and there is a higher chance of the mother doing so too.

BBear · 26/04/2014 22:46

I am in the middle of a relapse of MS. I am unable to walk. I cannot sleep. My whole body feels like a junkie overcoming withdrawal. Hopefully I will recover but it is long and painful process. this is a real and present problem. My friends are helping me with my son. I wonder how much time you have on you hands. Not in bitchiness but truly. there are so many who you don't have any idea are facing difficulties - your church/ the elderly/infirm/ those like me who 'look' normal most of the time. There are actual problems in the world. Deal with REAL problems and difficulties instead of 'oh gosh the world is so unfair' scenes. you are NOT faced with an actual and present danger/problem as far as i read (but w double vision? And optic neuritis ) I can hear you Quoting 'what if they come for me' poem. Help those around you. Be kind to those around you. Spend your energy on people you love and the many of us who could do with some help. You have no idea how much energy you possess - and I long for.

GarlicAprilShowers · 26/04/2014 23:08

Annikins, it's totally possible to be fully pro-choice but averse to abortions for yourself. I'd be in that category. The reason why I prefer anti-choice to pro-life is, of course, that people of Bumbley's disposition want to remove choice from other women.

BBear, I'm sorry you're having a shitty relapse. You're right, people theorise without having a clue about life's realities. It makes the desire to legislate against individual choice seem very malicious, if only through ignorance (that goes for several areas of life, in our present time.) Wishing you a swift remission Flowers

annikins37 · 26/04/2014 23:27

Garlic - thanks for your reply, but in fairness I don't think I could call myself pro-choice, which seems (if I understand it correctly) to imply I would be fine with other ladies choosing it. I wouldn't. I think it is wrong. But...I wouldn't make it illegal as there are a few limited circumstances that would make it a slightly grey area. If that makes sense?

GarlicAprilShowers · 27/04/2014 00:10

Sure it makes sense, Annikins :) Limited pro-choice = same as limited anti-choice, though you might emphasise different limitations.

My conscience won't let me set limits on my opposition to forcing pregnant women into any course of action - as Bumbley's won't let her limit her support for it. I don't like the thought of late-term abortion, but I don't want to force women either way just because I don't like the thought! But the vast majority of Brits hold the limited-choice views reflected in our laws.

sakura · 27/04/2014 00:13

There is a thread on here about a woman whose boyfriend wants her to get an abortion. I think we really need to start focusing on the men who are wantonly creating unwanted babies. There should be a movement focusing on getting men not to come inside women who don't want children, or whose children they don't want. SOunds radical doesn't it. It sounds absurd to try and get men to take responsibility for their role in creating lives, but that's where I think we need to be. The women on here who believe themselves to be so pro-life would balk at the thought of getting men to change their behaviour by not impregnating women. Which tells us they're not so much pro-life as anti-woman. It is anti-woman to infer that they are obligated to risk their lives to go through with an unwanted pregnancy. There is no logical argument for choosing a foetus's life over the mother's, unless you are able to devalue women to the point that they are nothing more to you than "carrying boxes" for the human race.