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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To want autonomy over my body.

999 replies

thebodydoestricks · 23/04/2014 16:12

Aibu here. I am 50 but apparently still fertile.

I have 4 children already and do not want any more.

According to some posters if I fell pregnant but hadn't used at least 2 methods of contraception I should be denied the abortion I would most definatly want.

I would have to go before a panel of judges in a court to plead my case. They would judge whether I should have an abortion or not.

Of course if there was a back log of cases then I would have to wait and if it reached 24 weeks it would be too late anyway.

I would be forced to give birth.

Aibu to be absolutely stunned at this posters view in Britain 2014?

OP posts:
CountessOfRule · 26/04/2014 17:47

Well, hmm, I guess where I fall in the argument is that I support termination to term because (a) that's for serious medical reasons where the quality and duration of the baby's life is under serious question anyway (and I completely support TFMR) and (b) the only other meaningful cutoff would be 24w as with "social" (not that they are, but for brevity's sake) terminations, but many medical anomalies couldn't be sufficiently investigated in time, which would surely result in more abortions, not fewer.

Because at 6m+ we aren't talking about a minor decision. Nobody "wins".

GarlicAprilShowers · 26/04/2014 17:49

perhaps it is the fact that it is theoretical that allows people to support it at all

No. I support women's right to choose what happens to her body and anything in it, at any point, and to change her mind. It's very simple.

As it goes, I don't believe this legal change would result in much changed outcomes. But that isn't part of my position, which is that each woman must be free to decide for herself.

I've certainly stated this more often and more clearly than you've stated yours, Bumbley. This isn't a private conversation, so it's helpful for new readers if posters state their points of view instead of continuously raising questions designed to manipulate emotions (or as well as, to be fairer.)

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 26/04/2014 17:50

"but initially why not support the idea of induction rather than termination? "

Because it's not viable. It would fail often which would be incredibly distressing.

And because I wouldn't want a woman at 25 weeks, 30 weeks, whatever, forced to remain pregnant until term.

5madthings · 26/04/2014 18:00

I don't know why you are so fixated on Kate term abortions anyway bumbley. I am right in that you believe in life from implantation so you would bot allow abortion under any circumstances? So why do you care that I believe a woman should gave the right to terminate to term?

By allowing women choice they can do what they need, you wouldn't even allow them that. I think wanting to deny women their bodily autonomy when it doesn't even affect you is more abhorrent than late term abortion. I don't seek to control what other women do with their body. I may not find the idea of late term abortion very palatable, but no one would force me to have one and I believe the vast majority of women are perfectly capable of choosing what is right for them. You seem to think we are all horrible and desperately wanting to kill babies.

Dawndonnaagain · 26/04/2014 18:31

Why are you trying to derail the thread?
Bunkum.

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 18:43

5mad, as I've said twice now, I'm just trying to understand the theoretical position of people supporting abortion to term for any reason based on the autonomy argument. I'm not trying to get bogged down in all the technicalities, just trying to figure out how people justify that position to themselves.

Countess, ok, some people support the idea of abortion to term for any reason, not just serious medical reasons.

Garlic, but you can't say why you support that.

"continuously raising questions designed to manipulate emotions "

Such as the one you asked me just up thread? Hmm My pro-life position has very little to do with the points being discussed here, most pro-choicers don't support the idea of abortion to term for any reason either.

TheDoctrine, as I said before it is a theoretical conversation (Abortion to term for any reason isn't a viable option either) and I'm talking about term pregnancies at 37+ weeks when people are saying a woman should still be allowed to terminate but it would be possible for her to deliver a live baby at that point.

5madthings, because people are arguing for abortion to term for any reason. That includes abortions of full term foetuses who would otherwise be able to survive outside the woman. I'm trying to understand the argument for it.

"I think wanting to deny women their bodily autonomy when it doesn't even affect you is more abhorrent than late term abortion. "

Well, most people disagree with you on that after 24 weeks. Someone committing infanticide doesn't affect me personally either but I still think it's wrong.

Sigh, no, I don't think you are all horrible baby killers, I'm just trying to understand your position.

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 18:44

to clarify for Doctrine, a live, full term baby.

5madthings · 26/04/2014 18:49

And inducing Labour whilst ensuring you deliver a live baby carries more risks than terminating, even at 37 wks plus. Why should a woman forgo bodily autonomy to do this? As it currently stand women in Labour can refuse treatment even if it results in the death of the fetus. Why would you want to deny women their bodily autonomy?

AnyaKnowIt · 26/04/2014 18:49

I'm not trying to get bogged down in all the technicalities, just trying to figure out how people justify that position to themselves.

That woman should be able to chose for herself. Why is that so difficult to understand?

TwistedReach · 26/04/2014 18:50

I have not read the other threads.
I do not really like any of the terms but if I had to choose one I suppose I would say I am pro choice and in agreement with the law as it stands but not regarding late term abortins for disability unless it is clear that the baby is going to die anyway or only live a life filled with pain and painful intervention (incompatible with life)- euthanasia.

However, I do not agree with late abortions and I do think that the baby's experience must be taken into account in addition to the mothers to make an ethical choice about this. If I found out that 12 week old fetus's had the same level of consciousness and feeling as month old born babies, I would change my mind. Equally if I found out that babies in the womb feel absolutely nothing and are no more conscious than dead people then I would support termination until 40 weeks. So basically I suppose I do not think it is clear that the mothers rights always outweighs the baby's - I think it depends on in part felt harm to both parties and I would want to know very clearly as much as possible about the evidence for harm in both. Rather than any blanket rules which are not open to looking and seeing all of the facts.

In the case of the poster in Ireland I absolutely support her in having a termination and send my absolute heartfelt support to her in such a difficult situation.

It is possible, to think about mother and baby without being blinkered and only having empathy for one party. And I think to say that life either begins at birth or at conception is lacking in imagination and has nothing to do with trying to understand the reality of experience for the developing fetus/baby.

On this thread, I have only seen bumbley make reasonable and thoughtful arguments/ questions and I really cannot understand the defensiveness and vitriol unless it is simply because she has a different opinion to everyone else (me included if she is that other horrible term, 'pro life')

5madthings · 26/04/2014 18:50

You are aware that induction of Labour actually carries the risk of death to mother baby, you talk as though it's a simple thing for a woman to go through and will result in a live birth, that simply isn't the case.

5madthings · 26/04/2014 18:52

My theoretical position is quite simple that women deserve bodily autonomy, preg and childbirth pose great risks to women, abortion is prettyvmuch always lower risk, even at term.

TwistedReach · 26/04/2014 18:53

I mean bumbles contributions have only been thoughtful, not that nobody else's have!

TwistedReach · 26/04/2014 18:55

It is relatively easy to see the harm caused to the mother and to empathise with it, to understand the reality for the baby is harder.

Dawndonnaagain · 26/04/2014 19:05

The thing about taking an ethical standpoint is upon whose ethics do we rely? Bentham, as does this government, Wittgenstein? Dirty Bertie?
Everybody differs, as we do here. The church does the only claim to an ethical and moral stance here.

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 19:05

"And inducing Labour whilst ensuring you deliver a live baby carries more risks than terminating, even at 37 wks plus."

Do you have a link to support that?

Anya, because women can't always just choose for themselves. If she decided that she didn't want her new born she couldn't just decide to kill it because she wanted to. The only difference here is that the full term foetus is still inside the woman which is why some people are using the bodily autonomy argument although if it was possible to induce without terminating the foetus then it doesn't really justify the need to terminate.

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 19:10

5madthings, but people here are talking as if late term abortions carry no risk either which is not the case.

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 19:10

Thanks, Twisted,

AnyaKnowIt · 26/04/2014 19:12

Anya, because women can't always just choose for themselves. If she decided that she didn't want her new born she couldn't just decide to kill it because she wanted to. The only difference here is that the full term foetus is still inside the woman which is why some people are using the bodily autonomy argument although if it was possible to induce without terminating the foetus then it doesn't really justify the need to terminate.

Offs, of course she couldn't kill a newborn as its a person in its own rightand not in her womb. If she had a newborn that she wwouldn't be after a termination would she? Again, what is so hard about that to understand?

While in her womb, she gets the choice!

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 19:13

Ok, so it is the bodily autonomy argument you are using then.

So if it is possible to exercise your bodily autonomy without terminating the foetus then what is the reason for terminating?

AnyaKnowIt · 26/04/2014 19:15

It is relatively easy to see the harm caused to the mother and to empathise with it, to understand the reality for the baby is harder

Really? The featus would be dead, it would know. The mother would have to live with the physical and mental scars of being forced to give birth to a child she doesn't want

5madthings · 26/04/2014 19:16

But it isn't possible without risk to the mother.

And yes abortion carries risks but it is still safer than preg and childbirth.

5madthings · 26/04/2014 19:16

And there is the psychological impact of having a child you don't want, even if you do give it up to the state.

AnyaKnowIt · 26/04/2014 19:17

So if it is possible to exercise your bodily autonomy without terminating the foetus then what is the reason for terminating?*

Its her choice!!! Who cares about what reasons?

bumbleymummy · 26/04/2014 19:25

5mad, do you have statistics for term abortions vs natural birth and induction? Re pregnancy - we are talking about requesting a term abortion here so she's already been through most of the pregnancy. Some women have born children that they don't want either.

Anya, are you using the bodily autonomy argument here or not?