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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that howling at people that they are racist is not...

590 replies

fidelineish · 23/04/2014 15:35

..the best way to challenge their thinking or change their views?

It crops up on here frequently and it is only going to become more frequent as UKIP campaigning steps up.

OP posts:
Original poster
fidelineish · 25/04/2014 19:13

I genuinely cannot see a decent future unless we look forwards not back.

That's what worries me too.

OP posts:
Jinsei · 25/04/2014 19:15

I think it's easy to say that people should look forward, not back, but not necessarily easy for people to do in practice.

My DH is from a country that was a former colony of the UK. His mother witnessed atrocities committed by the British when she was a child. DH is not so stupid as to blame modern British people for the crimes that were committed in a previous era, but the psychological scars don't go away that easily. The whole national psyche is affected by the experience of having been a colony, and past inequalities and injustices cannot simply be dismissed. We need to understand and acknowledge this before we can truly move on.

TillyTellTale · 25/04/2014 19:18

Actually, yes and no. Grin

Assault is one of those words that means something completely different in a legal dictionary. Legally, an assault is the act of making someone scared you're going to hit them. Unless my violent offenders attacked from nowhere, like from beneath invisibility cloaks, they probably both did commit assault.

I think the woman will maybe have committed actual bodily harm and the man could have committed malicious wounding or grievous bodily harm.

But I did absolutely detest criminal law, so I may be wrong on that.

Jinsei · 25/04/2014 19:19

How disappointing Jin. Maybe a small amount of (sometimes naff) ceremony (generally, not just citizenship) is good for us though if highlights and solidifies and codifies certain things?

I don't disagree with this, really. I guess I was just disappointed that the ceremony failed to highlight or solidify anything that I hold dear. It all seemed to be about the queen!!

TillyTellTale · 25/04/2014 19:20

remove you said: I don't care how apologists perceive the notion, racism is racism.

Hence my question: is a nine-year-old-boy insulting me, his older brother's friend, as upsetting as a teacher insulting a schoolpupil?

Jinsei · 25/04/2014 19:23

I guess the most British bit was the Registrar's smile when she overheard my dad asking DH at the end of the ceremony if he'd like to join the republican movement. :)

Original poster
fidelineish · 25/04/2014 19:26

The whole national psyche is affected by the experience of having been a colony, and past inequalities and injustices cannot simply be dismissed.

That makes sense and is understandable of course. It is C21st Brits sitting around feeling individually (and unproductively) guilty that I raise an eyebrow at. There's something almost self-indulgent about it.

I think the woman will maybe have committed actual bodily harm and the man could have committed malicious wounding or grievous bodily harm.

I understand thet Tilly but I think both victims would both consider that they had been assaulted.

OP posts:
Removetheblinkers · 25/04/2014 19:28

AmberLeaf, it was accepted many years ago that slavery was a barbaric. If anyone still feels such vitriol to white people today over what happened so many years ago then they have serious issues. What happened all those years ago bears no resemblance on modern society and people like you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to make the issue relevant in 2014.

Nobody alive today had any influence on slavery, and to insinuate we're all reaping the rewards today is for want a better word, bullshit.

rabbitrisen · 25/04/2014 19:29

Jinsei. I am sorry for what happened.

But how long before a country can move forward?

50 years, 100, 300?

Removetheblinkers · 25/04/2014 19:32

Can I just say damn this iPad and auto-correct!!! If I spell a word wrong I don't expect the bloody thing to insert random letters. Angry

AmberLeaf · 25/04/2014 19:32

Amber is it a 'social capital' argument that you are making?

There is an element of social capital to white privilige yes.

Removetheblinkers · 25/04/2014 19:34

Tilly, racism is funnily enough racism, but I'd hope the intent of a 9 year old wouldn't be as deeply set as that of a supposedly professional teacher.

AmberLeaf · 25/04/2014 19:37

AmberLeaf, it was accepted many years ago that slavery was a barbaric. If anyone still feels such vitriol to white people today over what happened so many years ago then they have serious issues

It isn't about feeling vitriol towards white people. I haven't said that at all.

I was talking about white privilige, something that white people have whether they recognise it or not.

What happened all those years ago bears no resemblance on modern society and people like you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to make the issue relevant in 2014

What happened all those years ago was the foundation for modern society and the issue is relevant now however much that annoys you.

Nobody alive today had any influence on slavery, and to insinuate we're all reaping the rewards today is for want a better word, bullshit

You really don't have a fucking clue.

Jinsei · 25/04/2014 19:39

But how long before a country can move forward?

Honestly, I don't know. I guess it takes as long as it takes. I'm not suggesting that people should feel personally guilty about the past, unless they were in some way responsible for it. Well-intentioned handwringing is not going to help anyone.

However, we can't just wish away the vestiges of the past because we think it's time for others to move on. And unfortunately, the racism that people experience in today's society only serves to remind people of past injustices, keeping the wounds open.

rabbitrisen · 25/04/2014 19:44

Personally I think it is time for the country to move on.
For some there will not be an end and 500 years would not be enough.

Actually, from absorbing this thread, I think it is well and truly time to be allowed to enjoy this country.

Most of us do have choices of living elsewhere, if we choose. And for whatever reason, we do not.

Time to enjoy where we live. And to tell others that we do too.

Montegomongoose · 25/04/2014 19:45

I was talking about white privilige, something that white people have whether they recognise it or not.

I can think of some poor white people in the West Indies a
(As well as a few closer to here) who would take exception to such a sweeping statement based in skin colour.

What happened all those years ago was the foundation for modern society and the issue is relevant now however much that annoys you.

Annoys? What an odd word.

So re my earlier point about the Romans. Their legacy is far more relevant and personal to the majority of Britons. Should we hate the Italians or not?

TillyTellTale · 25/04/2014 19:47

I understand thet Tilly but I think both victims would both consider that they had been assaulted.

If the person punched by the 15 stone man posted this on MN?

"Am I unreasonable to feel utterly fucked off that my friend thinks her bruising is as serious as my broken bones, just because we were both punched in the same club on the same night? This really fucking hurts, and she says I should be back at work already, because she didn't take any time off work, and that my sick note is me 'malingering'".

I think consensus would be that the bruised one was tactless beyond belief.

Remove Answer the question.

Removetheblinkers · 25/04/2014 19:57

AmberLeaf, I honestly think that society today would be exactly the same if slavery hadn't existed and this bears no resemblance. It's people like you that won't move on, and people like you that holds back modern society with your endless quest to regurgitate history for what? I don't feel guilt for something I had no hand in, why do you?

I don't look at a black person and think "ooh, they're ancestors were slaves", just like I don't expect a black person to look at me and think "ooh, there's a privileged white person".

Removetheblinkers · 25/04/2014 19:58

Tilly, I HAVE! I think. Ask me in layman's terms?

Jinsei · 25/04/2014 20:00

AmberLeaf, I honestly think that society today would be exactly the same if slavery hadn't existed and this bears no resemblance.

And I honestly think you are incredibly naive and ignorant if you believe this.

Montegomongoose · 25/04/2014 20:05

Amberleaf please tell me if I should hate the Italians? My birthday is coming up and I fancied gelato by a fountain...

Also, do I hate the Saudis and Emiratis for their contemporary slavery?

Or shall we all just agree that we have acknowledged and move on?

I know some people who hate for a living and they are bitter, one-track people. I don't want to be around them and their sad negative energy.

Jinsei · 25/04/2014 20:08

I don't think amberleaf is suggesting that you should hate anyone. Confused Acknowledging the impact of the past need not equate to hatred and bitterness.

TillyTellTale · 25/04/2014 20:09

Which is more upsetting and damaging to you as a person?

  1. Being called a wheat-bread-product by your friend's brother when he's throwing a tantrum.
  2. Being attacked for your race by your primary school teacher.
Removetheblinkers · 25/04/2014 20:15

Jinsei, the slavery abolition act came into force in 1833, that's 181 years ago. What has that got to do with modern Britain?

Tilly, WTF is a wheat bread product?

Justanotherlurker · 25/04/2014 20:15

Montegomongoose

Sorry but amberleaf is right, white privelidge is something to consider and isn't some type of slur/forced guilt

You cannot ignore the fact that you (presuming you are white, I am mixed) may have been born with certain intangible advantages, it also borders on ignorance to how society functions. Prejudice (conscious and unconscious) is not just your opinions and beliefs decided by your actions. It's also the culmination of other people's (i.e society at large) opinions and actions and no one is free from that.

I admit that constant handwringing and pretending that white English should automatically feel guilt and not discuss certain issues because of the past (hence we will never progress) is sometimes used to close down debate, but white privelidge is something tangible and to think it has been rubbish or eradicated is a little naive.