to think that howling at people that they are racist is not...

[fidelineish]

..the best way to challenge their thinking or change their views?

It crops up on here frequently and it is only going to become more frequent as UKIP campaigning steps up.

the more we actually need a measure of national pride to aid cohesion.

Which isn't to say I am advocating the (deeply irritating IMHO) old-fashioned, upper-class dominated, 'land of hope and glory' type pride. Quite the opposite.

Maybe, but it is the British who elect their leadership, and allow them to remain in power.

I thought we were chiefly discussing slavery? Are you aware of the %age of the population that had the vote at that time? Or at the start of the Empire era?

None of my ancestors at the time would have been able to vote.

Glad to hear it, fid. When living abroad, I recall thinking that one of the things I valued most about the UK was that we didn't go in for jingoistic shows of national pride, as is the norm in some other countries.

Personally, I don't really see how "national pride" would aid cohesion, but perhaps we have different understandings of the meaning of "pride". How would you envisage it working?

FFS, if someone judges someone else negatively because of the colour of their skin then they are a racist, simple as. To say it's prejudice if a black person judges a white person and racist if a white person judges a black person is quite frankly absurd. I don't care how apologists perceive the notion, racism is racism.

Sorry, I wasn't just talking about slavery - more of a general point, including more recent history.

My ancestors wouldn't have been able to vote either. Far too common!

How would you envisage it working?

Now there's a question Even though it's not really my thing I thought London 2012 (opening ceremony, volunteering etc) was good. The citizenship ceremonies that have been introduced seem a nice idea too. I do wish we could all just be less self-denigrating as a society and appreciate our national characteristics of humour and forebearance etc. Those things don't exclude anyone, of any background.

On a more selfish note, I am fervently hoping the whole of london re-embraces the joys of orderly queuing (and takes pride in it).

My ancestors wouldn't have been able to vote either. Far too common!

Well I just can't conjure up any guilt about things that not only I, but also my ancestors, had no control over.

Howling?

It has been known to happen around these parts Basil

Remove

Simple question. Is a nine-year-old-boy insulting me, his older brother's friend, as upsetting as a teacher insulting a schoolpupil?

Well I just can't conjure up any guilt about things that not only I, but also my ancestors, had no control over.

Me neither. But I can't conjure up any pride for my country either. For me, pride is something that I feel in my achievements, and those of people close to me. I like the UK, but I'm not proud of it.

As for citizenship ceremonies, I'm less than convinced. I cringed all the way through my DH's ceremony, and didn't connect or relate to any of it. But then again, I was never going to be thrilled about him swearing his allegiance to the queen...

As a sort-of-republican, I do hit all manner of problems with nationalism, but maybe mine is closer to affection, as you said.

Citizanship ceremonies have to be a move in the right direction though, don't they (whacking great picture of the queen and alleigance guff aside)?

Citizenship^

Does a small penknife cut in the same way as a massive sword? Or does one do more damage than the other?

Please tell me I hand misunderstood again and that you're not excusing a penknife because ancestors had swords.

In a civilised societry, surely neither is acceptable?

I have. Not hand!

Even on this thread, in 2014, there are posters saying it is understandable if not acceptable for people to be hated because of slavery

Who has said that?

Obviously if one has inherited sugar wealth, one has particular ethical challenges. The majority of us, who are descended from domesic servants and fieldhands and costermongers, however, needn't feel personal guilt or need to atone should we?

Can't we just jettison the baggage and deal with the current situation; tackling current institutional racism where it still lingers, for instance

Why do you think institutional racism is still an issue now?

The descendants of domestic servants, field hands etc may not have reaped the financial benefits of the slave trade all those years ago, but by way of their current white privilige that was founded on the slave trade and everything that was born of it, they reap the benefits now.

It is what they were born into, so there is IMO no need for personal guilt, but to deny that there has been any personal benefit from the ongoing system it created is very shortsighted.

It's all only relevant in background terms surely? Some cultural baggage there, but it's fading. Why does colonialism have to loom so large in every debate?

In this (as in whole thread) I am interested in the best pragmatic approach to improving society and eradicating racism NOW

Try to understand that it isn't a matter of forgetting slavery/dropping the baggage because it 'happened years ago, by people long since dead'
The 'baggage' of slavery/colonialism still exists now because, as I said above it is what created the system of institutional racism that affects black british people now in 2014 and it was the basis for white privilige.

If you can accept that, you may be able to change it. If you can't accept it, you don't have a hope.

Tilly, I don't have a clue what you're on about.

Citizenship ceremonies have to be a move in the right direction though, don't they (whacking great picture of the queen and alleigance guff aside)?

Don't know, I liked the idea but the reality was pretty awful in my view. In fact, I think it was one of the most alienating experiences I've ever had. And for the first time ever, I properly realised that I was a "subject".

My own feelings aside, I'm not sure that the ceremony made any difference to DH's sense of being British. I think that comes far more from the acceptance of people around you, from the feeling of being at home and integrated within your community.

Amber is it a 'social capital' argument that you are making?

Cutting anyone is bad (unless you're a qualified medic, performing surgery and your patient consented to surgery) but different weapons cause different amounts of damage. Same with racial prejudice.

A punch from a 7-stone woman will probably cause a lot less damage than a punch to the same place from a muscular 15 stone man. The damage that racial prejudice inflicts on lives depends on the power the arse can put behind it.

Which I suppose is why in criminal law, there's a whole range of violent offences, and they attract different sentencing.

but I don't think the economic or political clout of one group excuses the 'prejudice' of another

It definitely doesn't.

The economic/political clout [and various other aspects] are what gives one group the power over another to discriminate.

Which I suppose is why in criminal law, there's a whole range of violent offences, and they attract different sentencing.

The mitigation may vary, but both crimes are still assault.

Amber one of my ancestors was involved in sugar and several more were black slaves.

Some were white slaves, indentured servants from Scotland and Ireland who worked on plantations for seven years before being set free with a small parcel of unworkable land. They were treated even more appallingly than African slaves because there was no point investing in their health.

It's not as simple as you seem to be saying and I can't be bothered to work out what I should 'accept' or not. I've lived all over the world and met good and bad of all colours.

There is slavery happening today. I don't bring up my kids to be 'prejudiced' against people from the Middle East because of the human rights atrocities committed their by a minority this century.

I genuinely cannot see a decent future unless we look forwards not back..

How disappointing Jin. Maybe a small amount of (sometimes naff) ceremony (generally, not just citizenship) is good for us though if highlights and solidifies and codifies certain things?