to think that howling at people that they are racist is not...

[fidelineish]

..the best way to challenge their thinking or change their views?

It crops up on here frequently and it is only going to become more frequent as UKIP campaigning steps up.

I think the whole debate would be much easier if we all stuck to the general usage and meaning of words.

If one of the white men on the Clapham Omnibus has recently been on the receiving end of racial abuse and you tell him ( inded insist) that it isn't racism merely racial prejudice, what message and feeling does he take away from that? Is he then more susceptible next time he is canvassed by a minority group with unsavoury minority views?

My concern is that he might be.

tilly no problem, it's been a long week!

I understood the post to mean that, in the case of a black majority country it would still not be racism, but instead 'understandable' prejudice.

My point was that it's not, it's ugly, abhorrent racism. It's hating someone based on the colour of their skin. Stating that's not racism because their ancestors behaved in a certain way does not stop it being racist behaviour and not prejudice.

Sorry if that's garbled. It was utterly distressing to a small child who had no idea what she was talking about. It upset me then and it still does. Probably because the rhetoric was so compelling.

Even on this thread, in 2014, there are posters saying it is understandable if not acceptable for people to be hated because of slavery.

I don't see that many people marching round giving the Italians a pasting, or encouraging their children to hate them, but the Romans had slaves.

Even on this thread, in 2014, there are posters saying it is understandable if not acceptable for people to be hated because of slavery.

Now there's something I genuinely need explained to me; The idea that modern individuals should feel guilt or not feel pride in their country or whatever because of the country's past crimes.

Obviously if one has inherited sugar wealth, one has particular ethical challenges. The majority of us, who are descended from domesic servants and fieldhands and costermongers, however, needn't feel personal guilt or need to atone should we?

Can't we just jettison the baggage and deal with the current situation; tackling current institutional racism where it still lingers, for instance.

In this (as in whole thread) I am interested in the best pragmatic approach to improving society and eradicating racism NOW.

Racism is racism, and if anyone truly believes that there's no such thing as racism towards white people then they are seriously deluded. I am actually appalled at the attitude of some of the posters on here.

Now there's something I genuinely need explained to me; The idea that modern individuals should feel guilt or not feel pride in their country or whatever because of the country's past crimes.

I don't believe that modern individuals should feel guilt because of their country's past crimes. As an individual, I am clearly not responsible for the rights and wrongs done by my country, and although I am often saddened by historical misdeeds, I feel no personal guilt.

By the same token, as an individual, I can take no credit for my country's achievements, and I therefore feel no personal pride about where I'm from.

You can't pick and choose, in my view. If you identify with a country to the extent that you feel proud of your association with it, then I think you have to accept your fair share of the guilt too, by virtue of the sane association.

For me, both feelings are nonsensical. Nationality is merely an accident of birth.

"I understood the post to mean that, in the case of a black majority country it would still not be racism, but instead 'understandable' prejudice."

Well, I suggest you go back and read it again.

You can't pick and choose, in my view. If you identify with a country to the extent that you feel proud of your association with it, then I think you have to accept your fair share of the guilt too, by virtue of the sane association.

It's all very extreme though isn't it?

I've never knowingly touched a union jack in my life, I wouldn't call myself nationalistic at all, but I'm quietly fond of British manners and queuing ability and cream teas. I like being English, love our landscape but find our insularity and hot weather wardrobe confusion embarassing.

I don't want to paint my face red white and blue but I don't feel the need to cringe or flagellate myself for what the rich Brits did two centuries ago either. Am I alone here in the middle?

It's all only relevant in background terms surely? Some cultural baggage there, but it's fading. Why does colonialism have to loom so large in every debate?

No modern day social issue would ever get resolved if we allowed ourselves to get bogged down by the history like this.

Acknowledge it; yes, but don't get diverted from the issue.

Martorana I reread it, and I apologise if I misunderstood.

I still maintain that 'prejudice' is merely a euphemism for, and as abhorrent as, racism.

To ascribe 'power' to people because of their colour is also racist, in my opinion. I think that's more of a class/education/economic issue instead.

I don't want to paint my face red white and blue but I don't feel the need to cringe or flagellate myself for what the rich Brits did two centuries ago either. Am I alone here in the middle?

Of course you're not alone! I like lots of things about the UK too (cream teas included - yum!), and I came to appreciate the positives all the more whilst living abroad. I also became aware of many more negatives, but I chose to come back here, so on balance, I obviously thought the pros outweighed the cons! :)

However, much as I like and appreciate many things about the UK, I do not feel "proud" of it, and cannot really relate to that sentiment in other people. There is a huge difference between affection and pride, in my opinion.

And actually I just plain disagree with; If you identify with a country to the extent that you feel proud of your association with it, then I think you have to accept your fair share of the guilt too Jin; it is more than possible (and entirely reasonable) to be proud of the modern UK but not accept guilt for historical events.

I know people who migrated to the UK very recently who are extremely proud to take British citizenship. What about people who have both slave owning and enslaved ancestors (plenty of them) are they supposed to exist in a constant state of tormented duality?

montegomongoose

No, no, no, she meant that if white people were the small, vulnerable group, it would be racism.

Hating people for their skin is never acceptable, but power-imbalances and other factors aggravate it and make it worse. I think it's right to recognise that. It minimises discrimination to lump it all together.

My friend's little brother once called me a word more usually used for wheat-products-eaten-with-cheese. It was brattish of him, but I just hugged him, and that is the one time I have ever been called any kind of racial epithet. At the time, he was nine and he was called worse than that every single week. It would be wrong if I claimed I'd suffered racism, because it had no force behind it.

For example, in the very example you gave, that poor child you saw being insulted didn't just suffer racially-motivated mistreatment, she suffered it at school, from a teacher. That means that in any country, whatever the demographics, that incident is worse than my friend's little brother having a tantrum.

x-post

fidelineish, what a lovely sensible post.

I know people who migrated to the UK very recently who are extremely proud to take British citizenship. What about people who have both slave owning and enslaved ancestors (plenty of them) are they supposed to exist in a constant state of tormented duality?

If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I think both pride and guilt with regard to one's country are irrational, so clearly, I'm not suggesting that anyone should be tormented by past wrongs. Quite the contrary.

Obviously, you're entitled to disagree. I just think it's cherry picking to take pride in the good and distance yourself from the bad. But there's no law against it.

But racism is racism, whether you're a small group or a majority. It cuts both ways! Power imbalances and 'privilege' has nothing to do with it.

I just don't think I can associate any pride/affection/comfort that I do feel about being British/ the British people/ British way of life with any of the actions of any British gov't ever Jin. That might be the crux of it. I instinctively reject the notion that 'the British' and their leadership are the same thing.

tilly thanks!

I do understand, but I don't think the economic or political clout of one group excuses the 'prejudice' of another. I'm not English, but I live in Britain now and don't raise my kids to hate white men because other white men behave atrociously in the past.

There are people here who do, and I find that terrible.

I've lived in seriously intolerant countries and I get very defensive if Britons are dismissed as racist for being proud of aspects of their heritage.

And, more pragmatically, I think that the more culturally diverse we become, the more we actually need a measure of national pride to aid cohesion.

"But racism is racism, whether you're a small group or a majority. It cuts both ways! Power imbalances and 'privilege' has nothing to do with it."

It does. That's what racism means.

And what Monte just said

" get very defensive if Britons are dismissed as racist for being proud of aspects of their heritage"

They aren't being.

But racism is racism, whether you're a small group or a majority. It cuts both ways! Power imbalances and 'privilege' has nothing to do with it.

Racial prejudice is racial prejudice is racial prejudice. Racial prejudice and power is racism.

Does a small penknife cut in the same way as a massive sword? Or does one do more damage than the other?

Jinsei, I'm 35 years old, I'm well aware of the good and bad in our history, but it's the last 35 years that has formed me and I'm proud to be English NOW. I want what's best for England right now and for the future. I can't change the past, and just like the TV programme 'Horrible Histories', our history is horrible at times, but there is plenty of good there too!

I instinctively reject the notion that 'the British' and their leadership are the same thing.

Maybe, but it is the British who elect their leadership, and allow them to remain in power.