to think that howling at people that they are racist is not...

[fidelineish]

..the best way to challenge their thinking or change their views?

It crops up on here frequently and it is only going to become more frequent as UKIP campaigning steps up.

Ukip's popularity has peaked IMO. As a nation I believe we're instinctively suspicious of extremists and we're not susceptible to an ideologically run state. Possibly this is a legacy of the short lived republic we were under Cromwell's Major-Generals.

AmberLeaf, I see some of your comments have been directed at me! I hadn't read The UKIP manifesto online no, but then I haven't read the Lib Lab Con manifestos either. I'll be sure to read all of them before I vote. There's been more than enough media coverage to date to form a general idea in fairness.

You're still obsessed with playing the race card, can I ask you what policies you view as racist? The local housing policy isn't racist as I explained earlier, you may have missed that reply because I asked you a question which you didn't answer!

No, not aimed at you Removetheblinkers. I said 'the majority' that's not you is it?

I have debated with many UKIP voters/members/supporters, even a UKIP councillor over the last few years, on Mumsnet and elsewhere and an ignorance/denial of the policies etc has been a running theme.

Another common theme from UKIPrs, is when you mention/quote an abhorrant policy, they actually agree that is is abhorrant, while denying it could possibly be a UKIP policy because UKIP really aren't like that, then when they see it for themselves [on their first time of actually reading UKIP literature/manifesto] they attempt to offer up some 'fluffy' interpretation, even though 15 minutes prior, they fully agreed that it was awful.

You're still obsessed with playing the race card

Pointing out that something is racist, is not 'playing the race card'

A policy that would disproportionately affect black british people, is racist.

Trotting out 'you are playing the race card' is a common silencing tactic used to minimise claims of racism.

These questions?;

Do you not care about white/Caucasian people too?

I care about everyone. IMO no one in the UK should be treated differently/more/less favourably based on their race.

Why not just say it's an unfair and discriminatory policy rather than MENTIONING RACE?

Becuase as I have explained, I think it is a policy that discriminates against a particular group of British people [black british] over another.

And what terminology can I use to define race?

Come on, it's really not that hard is it?

Would you describe a black person as a 'negroid' to their face?

AmberLeaf, I wouldn't refer to a black person as a negroid just like I wouldn't refer to a white person as Caucasian, I'd use their name if I knew it. You're being ridiculous.

I think the housing policy affects far more white British people and certainly more immigrants than black British people. So if the policy affects a white British person it's discriminatory, but if it affects a black British person it's racist. Does racism not exist for white British people?

If I'm refused social housing due to lack of family roots can I play the race card?

The housing policy wouldn't affect immigrants, as they wouldn't be eligible for social housing anyway due to being immigrants;

Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it

How many immigrants do you think there would be, given the cost of private education and private health insurance. The cost of those two things alone would be prohibitive for the vast majority.

So, it is a policy that would certainly affect more british black people than immigrants.

I think the housing policy affects far more white British people and certainly more immigrants than black British people

It isn't about the volume of those affected, it is about the proportions on a percentage basis.

Something like 87% of the UK population are classified as white.

Black and mixed race people make up about 5% of the UK population.

As I have said before, the vast majority of black/mixed race british born people will have at least one parent/grandparent born in the caribbean or africa. So would be exluded from any kind of housing priority.

The vast majority of white british people will have all sets of parents/grandparents that were born in the UK, even if you assume 'locally' means within any specific borough [which I don't at all, yet another ambigious UKIP policy], white british people are far more likely to be eligible under this policy, so by that, are far less likely to be adversely affected by it.

So,
Black/mixed race british born people = most will be highly likely to be ineligible.

White british born people = most will be highly likely to be eligible.

Does racism not exist for white British people?

In Britain? No, of course it doesn't.

In awe of the patience on display here!

I agree with Amber about pretty much everything, but I would say that we are all subject to racist attitudes but for white people it usually manifests as privilege. So in the example quoted, white people are given privilege in respect to housing, because of their race.

I read about half of the thread but skipped forward, because I wanted to comment on the discussion on what racism actually is, and whether we're actually talking about xenophobia etc. I think it diversionary to attempt to police the use of the term according to evolutionary biology or whatever as actually, we're not trying to name aspects of biology when we term something racist; we're trying to name cultural assumptions about a particular socially defined group. So whether it correlates to actual biological race is neither here nor there, really. What matters is if you make assumptions about a person based on their social.grouping and apply policy accordingly. E.g. you assume a Muslim would support the UK' s liberal.democracy so wouldn't grant them asylum, or similar.

I think people don't think they are racist because they don't feel any hatred for people of Other backgrounds. But so long as you make assumptions based on those backgrounds, you are thinking in a racist way. Even if you are thinking positive thoughts, about, for example, how Muslims make good, disciplined parents, or black people are great athletes, etc.

The immigrant housing situation is relatively new, announced less than a year ago. Do you find this following quote racist?

Social housing

Ministers want to tackle the widespread perception that the way social housing is allocated is unfair and favours foreign migrants over local people and the armed forces.

One in 6 of all existing social housing tenants in London are now foreign nationals, and across England, almost 1 in 10 of all new social housing tenancies are given to foreign nationals.

So new rules will ensure that councils give priority to local people when allocating their social housing. Ministers will introduce new statutory guidance for councils, requiring them to amend their allocation policies to ensure only those with a well-established local residency and local connections will go on the waiting lists and qualify for a taxpayer-funded social home.

Councils will be required to make exceptions to support members of the armed forces who apply for housing, who may not have established local residency due to the nature of their work.

*a Muslim WOULDN'T support...

we're not trying to name aspects of biology when we term something racist; we're trying to name cultural assumptions about a particular socially defined group

Yes.

It did all get a bit muddied when Removetheblinkers went from explaining how she defines race, to quoting a definition of racism as an example. I think we got back on track, but there was some related digression.

I agree with Amber about pretty much everything, but I would say that we are all subject to racist attitudes but for white people it usually manifests as privilege. So in the example quoted, white people are given privilege in respect to housing, because of their race

Yes.

I accept that some black or asian people can display prejudice towards/about white people, but that is different to racism which requires an element of power to be put into effect.

Removetheblinkers

The immigrant housing situation is relatively new, announced less than a year ago. Do you find this following quote racist?

As you haven't provided a source for what you quoted, I googled it and see that it is from a news story on the government website.

Unnlike the racist UKIP policy we have been discussing, it refers to immigrants. Not british born people who descend from those born elsewhere [but particularly the caribbean and africa]

It also says;

The guidance, to be published for consultation shortly, will ensure councils require people to have lived in the area for at least 2 years. Only those who passed this test would be accepted onto the waiting list in the local area - and then would be considered for social housing. It will also encourage them to set other local rules for testing a resident’s connection to the area. This could include

having attended the local school
having family living in the local area

That is nothing like the proposed requirements by UKIP, it isn't IMO racist.

Wow, I can see now where you're coming from AmberLeaf. You say, and I quote:

I accept that some black or asian people can display prejudice towards/about white people, but that is different to racism which requires an element of power to be put into effect.

Your views in racism are very one sided. Racism against white people is very real and does happen in the UK, and to deny it like you have is quite frankly reprehensible.

Remove

She's using a very standard definition of racism, which she actually briefly explained, and which you quoted.

I accept that some black or asian people can display prejudice towards/about white people, but that is different to racism which requires an element of power to be put into effect

By the way, from your latest points, I take it you didn't see my post that points out that the word for white people that goes with "negroid" in specific contexts is not caucasian, but caucausoid?

If you don't foresee yourself referring to British caucausoid families any time soon, don't use negroid for black British people, either.

*caucasoid.

Wow, I can see now where you're coming from AmberLeaf. You say, and I quote

I accept that some black or asian people can display prejudice towards/about white people, but that is different to racism which requires an element of power to be put into effect

I really don't think you can see where I'm coming from actually.

Your views in racism are very one sided. Racism against white people is very real and does happen in the UK, and to deny it like you have is quite frankly reprehensible

You obviously don't understand the difference between racism and prejudice, despite my explanation.

Have a watch of this video, it may help you understand why there really is no such thing as racism towards white people;

No such thing as racism towards white people

Of course racism towards white people is possible and happens even in the UK.

The point is that it is less common and doesn't have the weight of enormous cultural baggage behind it.

Of course racism towards white people is possible and happens even in the UK.

Don't start throwing common sense and logic into an otherwise banal thread.

It's going to confuse people.

Racism; is race prejudice coupled with the power, or privilige to systematically discriminate against the race that is historically deemed inferior. In Britain/europe and TBH worldwide, the discrimination is against black people by white people, as white people are the ones who hold the power/privilige.

Race prejudice; a person can dislike all people of one race [eg a black person who doesn't like white people] but as black people do not hold the power or have the inherent privilige that white people do, that prejudice will have little if any impact on the lives of white people. A racially prejudiced black person may be able to insult, or even assault a white person, but they won't be able to deny them employment, fair access to education, housing, the criminal justice system or any of those things that the majority of white british people have been able to take for granted due to their position of privilige.

Racism implies a power relationship. And in this country, the "power" is in the hands of white people. So black people can be prejudiced against white people but not racist. In a majority Black Country it would b the other way round. HTH.

Racism implies a power relationship.

Does it!?

And in this country, the "power" is in the hands of white people.

There are streets, estates, districts and towns in the UK now, where that isn't the case. Local authorities where B'M'Es are the majority. Ditto workplaces,tenants' associations, PTAs etc etc.

Nobody is denying that our main and most insidious problem is racism towards non-white people and non Uk-born people (well i'm not) but lets be fully accurate.

The ideological hyperbole irritates me as it polarises the debate needlessly.

Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:

www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism

People thinking otherwise are over thinking it.

And of course deliberately misinterpreting the word.

(Got to go now, but will be back later - to deal with brickbats, if necessary)

This is a matter of how specialised your dictionary is, fidelineish and caruthers.

Somewhere in a box, I have a law dictionary, and on the shelf, I have a dictionary of mathematics, because my standard Collins English dictionary gives the general meanings of terms, not all the specialised meanings.

For example, my 2002 Collins English dictionary makes no mention of the mathematical definition of 'explicit'. (This is probably good, as if it did contain the same definitions as the maths dictionary, I wouldn't be able to lift it!)

My 2002 print of the Collins Dictionary of Mathematics says: "adj. (of a function) equating the dependent variable directly with a function of the independent variable, as in y=f(x), so that its values may be directly calculated from those of the independent variables."

Amber is using a more specialised sociological definition of 'racism'. As sociologists study society in depth and write books about it, they find it practical to distinguish between forms of discrimination. Mathematicians distinguish between different kinds of numbers, criminal lawyers distinguish between different kinds of physical injury, and sociologists analyse the inter-sections between racial prejudice and privilege.

Some recent tweets from UKIP member Andre Lampitt, who featured in UKIP's promotional film earlier this week:

“Get over it, slavery was an act of war, you lost stop being so damn jealous and move forward.”

“Muslims are animals their faith is disgusting their prophet is (a) pedophile”. (sic)

Ed Miliband -“He is Polish and not British so how'd he know what's good for Britain?”)

Africa - “I was born and grew up in Africa please leave Africa for the Africans lets them kill themselves off don’t go there”

Syria - “When I voted they did not tell me they would spend our tax money on Syrians I'm sorry but this is unfair”

black people can be prejudiced against white people but not racist.

That's not what I've observed in other countries. I saw a white child being called names by a teacher at one school I attended. It was not prejudice, it was bullying and racism. It was disgusting to see. The child had not personally been responsible for acts committed hundreds of years earlier.

According to some apologists, that sort of behaviour is excusable.

It's not. And it is exactly that kind of double standard that perpetuates the hatred and resentment down generations.

All of us have the choice to bring up your children to see the person not the colour and to leave history in the past. Several PP have stated they 'call racism' because one person can make a difference. Well make a difference by teaching your children to be colour blind.

Montegomongoogle

That's not what I've observed in other countries. I saw a white child being called names by a teacher at one school I attended. It was not prejudice, it was bullying and racism. It was disgusting to see. The child had not personally been responsible for acts committed hundreds of years earlier

I have no reason to doubt you, but do you not think it's unfair to take the person you quoted out of context? She said that "in this country" that "black people can be prejudiced against white people but not racist". And specified it would be different if we were in a majority black country.

And in this country, the "power" is in the hands of white people. So black people can be prejudiced against white people but not racist. In a majority Black Country it would b the other way round.

montegomongoose sorry. I'm so used to typing google, that's what's happens automatically after I type 'goo'.