to think that howling at people that they are racist is not...

[fidelineish]

..the best way to challenge their thinking or change their views?

It crops up on here frequently and it is only going to become more frequent as UKIP campaigning steps up.

It is possible to be aware of/acknowledge Englands/Britains past wrongdoings, at the same time as enjoying living here.

Acknowledging those things and challenging those who believe their 'englishness' makes them superior doesn't mean you don't like England/Britain.

"English people are no more distinct physically than any other european caucasians. So by that definition alone English is not a race."

Oh, I don't know, how about the stiff upper lip, the specially evolved hands and wrists for holding the bat straight, the ramrod backbone? Not to mention the piercing blue eyes, the special floppy blond hair, the finely chiselled aquiline nose............

AmberLeaf, you quote the Oxford dictionary as 'primarily' saying "Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics."

When in actual fact it says: "The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races"

For someone who likes to scream 'racist' at every opportunity I'm slightly perturbed you concentrate race purely on someone's physical characteristics.

So if UKIP are racist they're obviously discriminating against those with different physical characteristics and not the white Caucasians? Forgive me, I thought they wanted to limit immigration from the EU as a whole. Which parts of the EU are different races?

And with regard to this policy of housing people with stronger family connections, I agree that prioritising those with parents and grandparents in the same area is ok, it's in essence like a school catchment area. Just like a child born of an immigrant family in any given area should have priority over an English family who've moved to the area with no family locally. IYSWIM.

Martorana, you appear to have a few issues and your comments are derogatory to the vast majority of members on this board. I'd even go as far as saying you are a PRIME example of a bigot.

"Martorana, you appear to have a few issues and your comments are derogatory to the vast majority of members on this board. I'd even go as far as saying you are a PRIME example of a bigot."

Really? Please say more?

Martorana, you made derogatory comments about 'English characteristics' and you called me thick for being patriotic. People are allowed different opinions without the character assassination by yourself.

May I ask why you have such an apparent dislike for the English?

No, I called you thick because you think that being patriotic means thinking that your country is superior to all others. Not because you are patriotic.

And I offered some traditional "English" characteristics to support your contention that the English are a race-contrary to the actual meaning of the word. At no point was I derogatory. Mildly amusing, possibly. But surely the English are famous for being self deprecating?

Removetheblinkers

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races

That is the definition [as stated in the OD] of racism not race which was what we were discussing.

OD definition of race

For someone who likes to scream 'racist' at every opportunity I'm slightly perturbed you concentrate race purely on someone's physical characteristics

I haven't 'screamed' racist at all, much less at every opportunity.

Why are you peturbed? You posted something from the oxford dictionary page on the definition of race, I corrected you by posting what is according to them, the primary [first/main] definition of race.

It wasn't about what I 'concentrate' the definition of the term on, it was about the definition according to that dictionary.

So if UKIP are racist they're obviously discriminating against those with different physical characteristics and not the white Caucasians? Forgive me, I thought they wanted to limit immigration from the EU as a whole.

That policy isn't about immigrants, as I stated previously several times, it relates to people who were born here and whos parents may even have been born here. Those people are not immigrants. That policy would disproportionately affect black british people, so it is racist.

Which parts of the EU are different races?

According to you anyone who isn't English! but in reality, none.

And with regard to this policy of housing people with stronger family connections, I agree that prioritising those with parents and grandparents in the same area is ok, it's in essence like a school catchment area

It isn't suggesting that though, it is based on where those parents were born not where they currently reside.

Link should say 'link to OD definition of racism

Martorana, your comments HAVE been derogatory. For the record I'll say it again, I'm proud to English, and I honestly think England is the best country in the world. And the English, as a RACE of people, are the most superior race in the world. Funnily enough if a person of Indian or Chinese or African descent is born here then I class them as English, regardless of their colour or physical characteristics.

May I ask how you yourself define race? Would you say a black person born in England is English? Would they be negroid? Ultimately we're all human so all the same race, you know, the human race.

AmberLeaf, forgive me, it was a quoting faux pax, the Oxford Dictionary was used for racism and the Free Dictionary was used for race. For the record the quote I was referring to was:

Race

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.

And the English, as a RACE of people, are the most superior race in the world

Ultimately we're all human so all the same race

How are those two statements not contradictory?

Removetheblinkers you are just making it up as you go along.

Sorry if this has already been linked to but it seemed relevant

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/24/ukip-member-broadcast-suspended-racist-tweets

UKIP picked him as one of 5 of their supporters to appear on their election ads so they must think he's a pretty typical member...

AmberLeaf, the issue with parents and grandparents is a controversial one I admit, but it would never come to fruition if UKIP came to power, just like most policies the mainstream parties band about when it comes to election time. The two priorities for me are leave the EU and limit immigration to skilled key workers until we sort our own country out!

Remove- if your mother had been on holiday in France while pregnant with you and you had been born unexpectedly in Paris, I presume you would now be on French Mumsnet saying that the French are the most superior race in the world?

the issue with parents and grandparents is a controversial one I admit, but it would never come to fruition if UKIP came to power, just like most policies the mainstream parties band about when it comes to election time. The two priorities for me are leave the EU and limit immigration to skilled key workers until we sort our own country out

How do you know it would never come to fruition?

Typical of a UKIP supporter, brush off the abhorrent policies with a 'nooo, that's not serious' and focus on the issues that UKIP have drawn them in with, as though they are the only things that need to be considered.

On mumsnet, a lot of people don't understand what racism is, so if you use the term "race" at all, they think you are racist.

FWIW I think the OD definition of racism is ridiculous, and needs revised:

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races"

as I'm pretty sure I could tell someone from the Caucasian race apart from other races by their physical characteristics.

That definition would seem to deny the existence of different races at all.

I would rather go by legal definitions of racial discrimination and harassment, which have far more weight than the OD anyway. In that the OD has no authority as precedent in courts of law deciding issues involving racism, as opposed to legislation and past case law. Racial discrimination legislation gives a full list of characteristics designed to identify race.

AmberLeaf, like I've said all along, it depends how you define race. I class the English as a race of people, just like I class every other country and their race of people!

HavantGuard, Cyril Smith was a predatory paedophile, does that make all Lib Dems guilty by association?

Martorana, indeed I would. Vive la France!

That definition would seem to deny the existence of different races at all

I think you need to read it again...slowly. Sound it out if that helps.

AmberLeaf, because manifestos are just that, they have to go through Parliament and the House of Lords to become law. That particular policy is only there to appeal to white working class people in deprived areas. Only a loon would believe it would ever be a bona fide law. The main policy for EVERYONE is the EU vote, they're promising it no matter what, whereas only the Tories are saying they'll give us a vote if we vote them back in. And then they'll find a reason to delay it further.

MelonadeAgain, are the UKIP being racist saying they want to limit immigration form the EU? Are countries in the EU a different race? Is race defined by country or characteristic?

Haventguard, yeah I saw that I also saw this which at least is a couple of months worth of twitter comments and to be fair I am sure you could find many abhorrent opinions supporting any of the other parties, the fact that there are a lot of people waiting to pounce on anything they say you would have thought they would vet them a bit more carefully.

I do not believe for one minute that that policy is only to draw votes in.

I think it is representative of what UKIP members believe/want, that fool in Justanotherlurkers link is a good example.

AmberLeaf, do you remember the Lib Dems pledge to scrap tuition fees? That went well didn't it.....

It's all well and good taking a single policy and screaming racists but there's more to UKIP than that policy. I've had a quick search and I can't find anything on it. Do you have a link?

The thing with the parents and grandparents policy is it doesn't single out immigrant groups exclusively, it also applies to families who move to a new area. Those families with strong roots to an area should be given priority over newcomers.

Slightly different when someone is attracted to the party because of the beliefs they've happily tweeted about for months.