to think that howling at people that they are racist is not...

[fidelineish]

..the best way to challenge their thinking or change their views?

It crops up on here frequently and it is only going to become more frequent as UKIP campaigning steps up.

I might have to tell myself IWBU and hopelessly optimistic after all

Martorana, your personal insults and tone is somewhat offensive. If I said I was from some other country and immensely proud of it would you call me thick too?

Would you care to enlighten me as to why you hate England so much?

NigellasDealer, I know my history, I had a very good free education provided by this obviously shameful country. The people who should quite rightly be ashamed of their association with slavery are all long dead now. We learn from our past and move on. Some of us do anyway.

The people who should quite rightly be ashamed of their association with slavery are all long dead now
OK you just keep telling yourself that.

and the emptying out of the childrens homes when unwanted riffraff kids were literally decanted from this country?

And the slaughter of aboriginal people in Australia and Canada?

the wholesale deportation of the Chagossian islanders when even their pets were taken from them and gassed? and the Chagossians themselves dumped on a quay at Mauritius with no passports?

The partition of India when literally overnight some old pisshead just drew a line across the map? any idea how many people died in the next few weeks as a direct result?

I could go on but I have things to do.

If you feel no sense of shame for what the British government has done then I suggest that perhaps you are not very interested in history and have not really read very much at all. That is fine but dont bother me with your silly straw man arguments.

I'm convinced that nothing poses a greater threat to free speech and democracy in this country than the likes of the racist-card playing posters in this thread. Due to despair with mainstream politics I've voted UKIP at the last couple of elections but reading some of the posts in this thread has convinced me to get in touch with my local UKIP team and offer them my services. So well done you guys.

Disagreeing strongly with people's politics or opinions is one thing but demonising and shouting down with the full intent of silencing those opinions is utterly unacceptable.

nobody is shouting down anyone, it is called a 'discussion'

"Martorana, your personal insults and tone is somewhat offensive. If I said I was from some other country and immensely proud of it would you call me thick too? "

If you also said that because of your immense pride you thought your country was superior to all others, then yes, I would.

English race of peoples was a slight dig at AmberLeaf after they said that 'English isn't a race'. Technically it is

No, it isn't.

How interesting to see someone so proud of being racist.

I know my history, I had a very good free education provided by this obviously shameful country. The people who should quite rightly be ashamed of their association with slavery are all long dead now. We learn from our past and move on Some of us do anyway

Slavery was justified by the racist ideology that Africans were inferior to europeans, subhuman even.

For someone who appears to be proud of being a racist, I don't get how you have learned anything, or moved on if you state that you believe your race is superior.

NigellasDealer, I'm only 35, unlike you I wasn't around to witness all these atrocities, but I appreciate they're obviously still fresh in your mind.......

It's our past, there are many other countries with a chequered past, some even committing these atrocities in my lifetime. The people to blame are the government and whoever the world leaders are at the time.

You seem an intelligent enough person, you'll appreciate that these atrocities are sanctioned not by Doris who lives round the corner, but the government and rulers and whoever is in charge of a country. These actions bear no resemblance of the ordinary population of a country.

Just like our government today, we are blessed with mainstream politics where by they won't let the population have their say on the EU. We're denied a vote because it's not what the government wants. If the government went to war tomorrow on Syria there's nothing we could do, regardless of whether we as a nation wanted to.

"I usually claim to be Irish when overseas. and before anyone complains my father comes from there."

I think that's cowardly. If English people whose fathers don't come from Ireland (or anywhere else that lets them conveniently pretend not to be English) have to just get on and deal with being identifiably of a nationality with a complicated and at times shameful past, and present, why shouldn't you?

That's the thing, we all have to make the best of being from whichever country we've ended up belonging to, and I mean make the best of in both senses - putting up with the things we can't change (like the past) and improving the things we can (like the future). Going round blaming all the other English people, and pretending not to be English at all while travelling, is just a cop-out.

Attempting to shut down debate by calling people who have different opinions (quite possibly because they have different experience) names, isn't quite as successful as the name-callers would like, fortunately for the rest of us.

Very well stated amicissimma

To my eternal shame I voted NF as an 18 y/o in the 70's.

Fortunately I grew up.

But I could always understand how threatening it must have been to grow up in a community that completely changes within a single generation, such as Southall. Telling someone they are a racist does not solve anything, it merely alienates those feeling threatened even further.

AmberLeaf, argue that point with the Oxford Dictionary, I regard that as more accurate than your opinion.

And I shall reiterate, yes our rulers have behaved shockingly in the past, but I for one have never owned a slave and never would. I'm not going to berate my country now for something that is consigned to history and the perpetrators of which are long since dead.

You keep hysterically shouting racist at everyone if it makes you happy!

NigellasDealer "nobody is shouting down anyone, it is called a 'discussion'"

Ah, what you're doing in this thread is a discussion is it? With comments like this?

• "show me a 'patriot' and I will show you an idiot"
• "anyone who is proud of being English is a twat."

And your incessant demands that we all be ashamed of being English/British. Otherwise, of course, we are ignorant or idiots.

It is people like you who drive others to vote for UKIP and now, for my part, to campaign for them. So do keep up the good work

We don't get to choose our nationality (mostly) and it's up to us to make it better. Do you think the best way for someone of German descent to deal with the legacy of the war would be to go round pretending to be Swiss? What's the point?

I don't agree entirely about the innocence of Doris round the corner - I think one of the terrifying lessons of WWII is that terrible things can come from what seems like very mild, reasonable, not that extreme views - and then they shift, gradually, further and further. I don't believe that Germans are fundamentally more evil than anyone else - that's not how Nazism got going. It's scarier than that.

For me what that leads to is the need for people to work together to bring people away from the slippery slopes towards extremism, and that won't happen with sweeping generalisations about how evil England is, or by pretending not to be English and sneering at most of the rest of the population who are stuck with that label only and want to make the best of it. No one is going to be persuaded by any argument that starts with "first acknowledge that you (and your country) are fundamentally, inescapably, evil and worthy of nothing but shame". It will never, ever, work.

Vertec I'm not entering into the general debate again but do you feel no concious about saying you will actively campaign for a party who will only consider someone "local" and British enough to be treated equally if they are 3rd gen?

You are seriously comfortable with adults and children who were born and bred here to be considered still foreign just because their grandma once came from a country they have never been to?

A party who despises homosexuals and won't allow gay marriage.

Its just you sound quite reasonable and I'm shocked that you can justify hurting others in that way.

There's always going to be a Ukip of some kind. The dominant political parties are the real sickness, Ukip are just the rash it's come out in.

As an aside, those posters who say 'Patriotic English people are twats' ' fuck off, you racist cunt, you are racist because I say so and fuck, cunt, shit up racist cunt etcetera' I have a genuine question.

Are you also teaching your children to make pejorative snap judgements about people with different viewpoints, life experiences and beliefs? And to pile in with abuse rather than reasoned and respectful debate?

softlysoftly - please direct me to any UKIP policy where this sort of caste system is advocated?

To say that UKIP as a party "despises" homosexuals is clearly ludicrous, and it's this kind of inflammatory language that is also debasing our political debate and creating a climate of fear.

In your own, more well meaning way, you are the other side of the coin to NigellasDealer. She goes round calling everyone a racist and an idiot, and you articulate vague fears about non-existent extremist UKIP policies. Both are unhelpful and add nothing to a real debate about the concerns of many, many people.

As long as the debate is distorted in this way, and people feel they are not being heard or are being misrepresented, the more votes UKIP will pick up.

softlysofly - I correct myself, I've just seen the posts where you do go around calling everyone a racist. Sorry, I misrepresented you there. So I guess you are more on Nigella's side of the fence. But my point stands - you can be vociferous and call people names, or you can just misrepresent UKIP policies in a vague way. The outcome is the same - a debasement of the debate that gets nobody anywhere.

AmberLeaf, argue that point with the Oxford Dictionary, I regard that as more accurate than your opinion

The oxford dictionary primarily defines race as;

Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics

English people are no more distinct physically than any other european caucasians. So by that definition alone English is not a race.

Glad that you acknowledge The Oxford dictionary is accurate. That should clear that one up then.

And I shall reiterate, yes our rulers have behaved shockingly in the past, but I for one have never owned a slave and never would. I'm not going to berate my country now for something that is consigned to history and the perpetrators of which are long since dead

Slavery is consigned to history, but you, as someone who believes their race to be superior are a good example of how its effects have been far reaching longer after its abolition.

You keep hysterically shouting racist at everyone if it makes you happy!

I am typing, not shouting. I am no where near hysterical. This is a written conversation, a debate and I have posted reasoned replies.

please direct me to any UKIP policy where this sort of caste system is advocated?

I have linked to that particular policy several times on this thread.

But my point stands - you can be vociferous and call people names, or you can just misrepresent UKIP policies in a vague way. The outcome is the same - a debasement of the debate that gets nobody anywhere

This ties in nicely with the OP doesn't it?

Even if you post in a reasoned manner, back your statements with facts/links to those facts, the outcome is the same. Denial from UKIPers

Local Homes for Local Families
UKIP will prioritise social housing for those with parents and grandparents born locally

Vertec the below policy is written in their manifesto. This is the caste system that I refer to. It isn't vauge. And yes it means born in Britain, rather than "local" to eg Manchester as bottomed out in another thread.

In the same manifesto they state they oppose gay marriage. Though civil partnerships they will allow. Ok so the "despise" I take from the actions of their leaders not their written words.

Are you ok with that first policy? Only it advocates discrimination on racial heritage not on the individual being born in this country.

and I would point out I am for controlled skilled immigration. I don't scream racist about that. I think it's an issue that needs facing. I just can't support UKIP as they aren't just about British Citizens first. They would define how "British" you need to be.

Post went wrong there! The policy written at the top which has been linked to source previously.

So are the people who dont like England, or dont like Britain, choosing to live in England or Britain?