To think if a child starts school unable to do these things they have some kind of SN? and a checklist won't help!!

[brighteyedbusytailed]

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10741986/Ofsted-all-parents-should-get-a-checklist-telling-them-how-to-raise-their-children.html]]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10741986/Ofsted-all-parents-should-get-a-checklist-telling-them-how-to-raise-their-children.html

YANBU.

That will make people struggling with undiagnosed SN feel loads better. Not.

how many 5 year olds start school not knowing their name? really?

So depressing that children starting school might not be able to do these things (unless they have sn). All the children in my 2 year olds nursery class can do this by the time they're about two and a half (I help out a few times a term so I can see what they're capable of)

I disagree. We start school too early in this country. My DS was born very prematurely and will be only just 4 when he starts primary school in September. He can do most things on the list, but struggles with coat and shoes for instance - he just doesn't have the motor skills yet. He doesn't have SN, it has just taken him a bit longer to get the hang of some things. If the school start was at 6 like most of the rest of the world there wouldn't be a issue at all, as it is we are desperately playing catch-up already and he hasn't even bloody started school yet. Makes me v. cross.

I read 'recognise their name' as recognise it written down.

Hmm. He's an arse.

But I find it interesting that some parents are so worried about teaching phonics and writing before school and seem to think it it someone else's job to teach their child to wipe their bum and put on and take off their coat - basic life skills that give the child independence and self esteem

Isn't it obvious that a child should be able to do these things unless of course they have special needs. If parents don't know this it demonstrates that a checklist is needed.

yet more nursery bashing by Ofsted
and a massive label for those living in poverty
I work in a nursery and my 2 year olds can dp most of that checklist
the majority of my preschoolers can as well
and for those that can't there ate lots of reasons , not always down to bad patenting or being poor
this government is really pudding me off now and ad for Ofsted I wish they would all just self implode

How many parents wouldn't want to teach their kids that stuff though, really? won't reflect on them well...
I come from a rough area. and the only 2 kids who have trouble with stuff like that are kids with SN.
From that article you'd imagine all the kiddies were like the recess kindergarten kids .

Hmm, it depends, DS is due to start school in September, he can do most of those, but we had a long load of issues potty training (although started at 2.5 yo), and he has still the occasional accident if not reminded to go to the loo regularly and can't wipe himself properly yet. At nursery and at home, he's reminded to go to the loo regularly to avoid accidents and he's cleaned. We're working on teaching him to wipe himself and are pretty sure he'll be able to do that before September.

However, he's one of the oldest of the year, there will be summer born children starting in september who are younger than he is now, I don't feel he's behind particularly, but then I can be more relaxed as he has the best part of a year more than other DCs to get up to speed on these things.

I also think some parents don't help their DCs, I've heard several mums going on about the virtues of old fashioned, buckled shoes or laced shoes, but their DCs therefore can't just put their shoes on by themselves, whereas velcro shoes are easy for a 4 year old to do.

Agree with Fanjo. Any checklist needs to take into account possible undiagnosed sn, and advise parents where to go to rule this in or out.

And yy re poor bashing tone of the article.

I think a fair number of (EFL) 4 year olds don't speak in sentences - maybe a reception teacher can speak from experience. I also think that spontaneously asking an adult for help, whilst obviously desirable, is a big challenge for a 4 year old.

My DD with no SEN wasn't reliably toilet trained by 4 - like a PP we started training at 2.5 and I honestly don't think there's anything more we could have done.

Btw I don't think a start of school developmental checklist would be a bad idea, if linked in to the school nurse, gp and if necessary salt or paediatrician, ie was similar to toddler hv check, rather than presuming irs bad parents responsible for kids struggling

Tbh, I work in reception, and I've known children start school unable to do those things, and they don't have SN. They learn quickly enough as soon as we teach them, but sometimes no one has ever bothered to teach them before.

It's not always children from deprived families that can't do these things, there are plenty of MC children who can't take themselves to the toilet, put on their own coat and shoes, or understand that 'no' and 'stop' mean they are doing something they shouldn't simply because they are over indulged by their parents.

However, a widely known checklist of "should be able"s might be useful in flagging up undiagnosed SENs. I don't see that just ignoring the fact that a child can't do a load of really basic things for their age is ever going to be helpful. Ideally a good teacher and/or nursery would be on the case, but if everyone has the same assumptions then that might be actually helpful.

My son wasn't diagnosed with his SN until he was 9! Luckily he was born early in the school year and was nearly five when he started school. He pooed in a loo (rather than a potty) for the first time only three months before he started school, and I had to wipe until he was nearly seven.
I made him put on his shoes, and we fought and fought about it. It was a nightmare every morning, again, until he was about seven. I could not understand why he would make such a scene about it every day when his young brother just put his clothes and shoes on from the age of two or so.
Then finally, at 9, he was diagnosed with severe dyspraxia and ASD. He hadn't been able to do those things any earlier than he did.

I worked in reception classes too but in deprived areas. Many children couldn't do that stuff, including read their own names, one didn't even know his name, he thought it was 'shithead'

Countries that start at 6-7 have check lists ;) Well Germany does - tying shoe laces is given slughtly ludicrous importance (though I know on average it can indicate less easily described complex abilities) - I know somebody (local) who was convinced her son wouldn't be allowed to start mainstream school as he just cannot get to grips with laces... being able to resolve minor conflicts with peers and cross a road safely are sensibly mentioned, as are obvious things like knowing colours, using scissors, knowing own phone number and address...

When I started school, the school gave out a checklist of things they expected children to be able to do- including going to the toilet independently and dressing themselves (other than buttons and laces).

This was in the days of reception children being rising 5s, and I attended a school which only had outdoor toilets and no TAs, so it was quite important that you could go to the toilet by yourself!

YOS , thats horrendous, thats abuse though , more than deprivation, I was brought up v. poor but v. strict had someone used that language to me at that age my parents would unceremoniously removed their ability to.

All the things on that list are not absolutes.

Sentences? I studied linguistics as part of my degree. Adults do not talk in sentences, as you would write them.

Potty trained they might well be , but unable to deal as well as an adult or older child with sudden urgency because of a stomach upset, or because they felt they had to defer going to the toilet whilst they were waiting for assembly to finish, for example.

Sitting still? How long for? I'm sure many parents have heard the maxim concerning children's concentration abilities...a minute for every year of their lives?

Speak to adults? Well if you give them chance enough for those adults to establish a relationship with them...would not want them to go an ask strangers for everything...

These are just some examples. Each of those points covers a range of skills...