To think if a child starts school unable to do these things they have some kind of SN? and a checklist won't help!!

[brighteyedbusytailed]

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10741986/Ofsted-all-parents-should-get-a-checklist-telling-them-how-to-raise-their-children.html]]

Being a teacher in an area of high deprivation (inner London) I can tell you that a lot children start nursery/ reception unable to do many things on that list.

I think it's a good idea. The article's been written to have a 'lets all judge the poor' negative edge, but I think the actual idea behind it is good.

Not everyone knows what they should be teaching their children. We all assume that these basic things are a given, but they are not! It doesn't mean they don't care about their children. If you've not had good parenting examples yourselves/ nobody tells you, then how would you know?

Yourself*

What happens if your child can't do the things on the checklist? Does your child get to stay in pre-school for another year? DS2 couldn't do a lot of the checklist, he wasn't reliably dry during the day until he was nearly 6, still can't do laces (aged 15), had real dramas taking off and putting on clothes, knew what stop and no meant, but wouldn't always do what was asked, loved a book, if he could have a good flap with it..... He was diagnosed at age 8 as having dyspraxia, ASD and SPD, but the school decided that I was a shite parent and he was just difficult, despite the nursery flagging up that all was not well.

So, from my POV, a checklist wouldn't always be a bad idea, as long as it meant that someone would take notice.

Pah!

A checklist isn't what's needed - that's just another stick to beat a concerned parent with!

Access to specialist assessments, followed by specialist direct interventions and therapies on the health front, and then decent funded training for school staff based on proper evidence based practice rather than some politician's wet dream would help.

A generation of children with the so-called invisible disabilities (ASD/adhd/apd/dysraxia/DCD/GDD/spd etc) is being systematically failed at all levels and stages.

This is mostly due to an establishment that would rather throw money at almost anything other than evidenced based practice. I'll include the HV service under this umbrella of not being terribly fit for purpose long before a child gets to school age.

I used to work with children and came across some children unable to do those things when they were 4 years old and no SEN.

And I mean the rare child who obviously had no idea what no meant, and did not listen to the word at all. Who had no idea how to put on shoes, etc. It was clear they did not have SEN, as after 6 months they were indistinguishable from other children in terms of their development. Some children have very poor parenting, and a checklist may actually be helpful for parents who love their children, but themselves had very neglectful parenting.

i was a foster care for 7 years now adopted and almost all the abused and negated children could not do these things not because they had SN

Because they had poor parents whatch 15000 kids and counting

Parents who are mostly drunk and call then little shit so many times they think it's there name

Parents whose IQ is so low they would struggle to be taught anything let lone teach there child

Or the plain lazy who sought to use SN and a way of excusing their poor parenting however amazing as soon as the child was in foster carer usually blossomed

And no people who foster older children as I fostered babies who will tell you their are children of 6 and 7 who can show you how to role a joint but would not no what to do with a knife a folk

A lot of this is down to low level neglect

I know a fair few children without special needs who started at my school not being able to do all those things. Mainly lacking on the behaviour boundaries, speaking in sentences and full toilet training.

The children are now Y4 and 5 and I still have to help with shoes sometimes (definitely no SN promise!)

People with chaotic lifestyles usually don't have time to show their child to button their coat ECt

It really annoys me we do a disserve to those parents with children who really have SN but lumping poor parents in with them as well

And it the last couple of years I have noted a marked increases in the parents of children that have removed saying no it's not me there weeing in the corner at nursery because they must have SN or I don't know why mikey (6) can barly string a sentence together I. Know why it's called low level neglect

No brainer that the children from chaotic families do worse

OP, you are assuming that everyone parents along broadly similar lines, and that isn't the case. Lack of basic skills can mean an undx SN, or ot can mean parents who lack the knowledge or understanding of why those skills are necessary and don't prioritise them.
And as others have said, I too have taught MC children who lacked basics because mummy or daddy always did things for them.
Good nurseries and EY units are invaluable.

What's the point of setting out a list when the medical professionals don't act on a parent's concerns anyway?

DS1 had obvious problems. I noticed it relatively early. I brought it up time and time again to the GPs (multiple) at the surgery, the nurse practitioners. Fobbed off each and every time. Nursery same thing. Reception? Within 2 days, teacher arranged for me to meet with senco and support was put in place. Literally cried in senco's office because someone was FINALLY listening to me. He is now at a special school and given support for his disabilities.

I am not the only parent that has had to deal with this.

All this seems be to concerned with finding blame / where fault lies:

1. There is something wrong with the way the parents, parent Or
2. There is something wrong with the child, they have SN Or
3. There is something wrong with the pre-school / nursery education. They have been focussing on the wrong things.

How about joint responsibility? In life I think often things are not so clear cut. How a child responds to different kinds of people in child care settings and family relationships can be complex. One size does not fit all. One teaching style may work very well for one child or carer, but not for another child or carer. There are lots of people involved in the dynamic. A child's achievements or 'underachievements' can involve more than one person.

I think the focus should be on solving problems, not apportioning blame...

DS 4.6 won't go to a public loo and never goes in the one in the pre-school, either (feels scared/uncomfortable by them), so he will probably wet himself at full-time school - quite a bit. He will deny needing the loo and then leak bit by bit. Also, he doesn't mind damp pants (unless they are quite wet), so will not ask for help.

He has, however, taught himself to read from around 3 onwards and can now read just about anything (writing is not on the cards any time soon, due to his lower-than-average fine motor skills - he also has trouble/unwillingness with clothes: can't take his shirt off or put it on, or put on most shoes, do buttons, etc.). I hope everything will correct itselfi time. His development just seems a bit topsy turvy ATM (have to mention pre-school has no worries about him, either). I keep encouraging him to do things he finds hard (and thus is very reluctant to do), but try not to make big issues out of things, as I feel they will only be further delayed that way (he is very sensitive and stubborn).

ive read a few people commenting about poor parents (financial=poor) sorry but the worst children ive seen come from the families where both parents work no one raises the child except nanny and friends and they have no clue i was a single parent for six years on income support my daughter was the youngest in the class and she could do everything on the "list" she is top of the class now we are still not rich

With the exception of special needs, I find it worrying that so many children start school apparently unable to do so many of these basic things.

To me this is basic conditioning. I would have been mortified if my children had been unable to use the toilet or recognise their names by the time they started school.

They could put their coats and shoes on from quite an early age, although I would always have to check before we went out of the door that shoes were on the correct feet.

I can see why the check list has come up, but I don't like the tone of some of the articles I have read.

Also, DS is quite a fussy eater and tends to stick to "dry" foods (or things eaten with a spoon, such a yoghurt), so hasn't learned to use a knife and fork very well, as he will just use his fingers instead. I believe, he will learn when he is ready.

Have to give an example of willingness and ability: DS has had a balance bike and a scooter since he was 2.5. He had no interest in either and was scared when we tried to put him on them and show him what to do, so just left the issue. Over a year later, when I had resigned myself to selling them, DS suddenly asked to use the scooter. Mastered in about 5 minutes. Same thing happened with the bike a couple of weeks later. Sometimes you just have to wait until they are motivated.

I disagree. Some things on the list I think most 4 year olds should be capable of doing but some I think could be hard.

• To sit still and listen- how long are they expected to sit and listen for? 5 minutes? half an hour? an hour? I would think 15 minutes would be reasonable to expect occasionally but sitting and listening for long periods of time isn't something small children are designed to do

• To be aware of other children- Yes if that means to be aware that there are other children in the room but things like being aware of other children's feelings and how actions will effect other children is a hard skill, some adults don't seem to have acheived this

• To speak to an adult and ask for needs- this sounds like a really easy thing to do but in reality trying to get the attention of a teacher when in a class of possibly 30 other children could be challenging for a number of reasons, shyness or the child might not be aware that the teacher can help them with some of their needs. I was born in the summer and had just turned 4 when I satrted reception, one day I had dungerees on and I could't work out how to undo the clips, it didn't occure to me to ask my teacher to help me as she was my teacher, you couldn't sit on her knee or cuddle her I assumed it wasn't her job to help me go to the loo, so I weed in my pants as I didn't know what to do.

• To be able to take off their coat and put on shoes- We all had the same claks patent balck school shoes with a key in the bottom, on many occasion we went home with the wrong shoes, 2 left shoes, vastly different sizes.

• To open and enjoy a book- What if they don't like books and they like building dens more? Is it really that important that kids like books? I agree that children should have the oppertunity to read books at home but to dictate what a 4 year old child should enjoy just to enable cramming early education in is misguided.

poster tiggytape sorry don't garre I my experince as a foster carer many of the children who the parents have sworn blind have SN that way they can't put of their shoes or button up there coat or still have a bottle so soon as they move to foster care the change is tangible

I once went to a school meeting the child had been removed just before the summer and returned in seep and the teacher could not believe the transformation in the child we manged to teach that child who to use cutlery and to wee in the toilet and to put of there shoes in 6 weeks the parents could not teach their child these few skills in 5 years

poster Topseyt

Personally there is Lowe level negelct but amoung the well to do *there is this new craze when children do as they please when they please so instead of teaching a child to take on a off there shoes if they simply don't want to they don't have to I believe there was a women on this moring with sort hair spouting this shit and I believe this has also contributed to children simply unable to do much

Shocking really *my hairdressers daughter is 7 and last night I hard her say I just coming up to wash you now just let me put the tint on a 7 year old should be able to bath themselfs ffs and no she has no SN

The man has no idea how children work.

You can teach children to sit still on command. You can't teach them to listen. You have to help them to learn to be interested and engaged in things so that they are choosing to sit still because they want to listen.

There have always been children starting school without basic skills. The parents who haven't been giving their children the opportunities they need to learn those skills are very unlikely to do so just because someone gives them a checklist.

All a checklist will achieve is competition between pushy parents and added guilt for those whose children are not developmentally ready for some reason.

both mine started with undiagnosed special needs. it takes a very long time to work your way through the system.