To think if a child starts school unable to do these things they have some kind of SN? and a checklist won't help!!

[brighteyedbusytailed]

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10741986/Ofsted-all-parents-should-get-a-checklist-telling-them-how-to-raise-their-children.html]]

She said if they do have SN school should support them I mean. Still not awake.

I don't think a child struggling with the things on that checklist would necessarily get a statement (or EHCP, which is what statements are being replaced with). At present around 2% of children receive a statement.

they're either not allowed to start school or they're confined to special units etc.

Delaying school entry for a year (and then entering yrR as opposed to deferring and entering yr1) is not an easy thing to do, and in order to go to special school a statement would be required. I take issue to the idea that children are confined to special units, as if they are some sort of prison or dumping ground.

Fanjo I have no flame thrower.

Just pointing out that schools need to be more capable, regardless of additional funding, because in the current system they cannot apply for additional funding in order to meet needs. Additional funding is to recompense them for actually meeting needs over a certain financial threshold.

Thinking about it, that checklist will probably be used for prior attainment data. This will then, probably, be used to channel the initial (delegated) funding into schools, which they can choose to spend on SEN.

Sorry. .it read as if you had misread her post.

Fanjo Children with developmental delays may have (more permanent) SN or they may not. Many are not diagnosed until they are older.This is where I was coming from with that comment...

Ok fair enough :)

Even if they were just young for their age (and they might have SN which wouldn't be diagnosed until later) why should a child miss out on their education?

halcyondays they are not missing out on their education if they start reception a year later - they still get the same total amount of time in education, they just start a year later (in fact they may get longer in conventional education if the delay means they are more able to succeed, therefore end up staying for A level (or equivalent) rather than struggling along and leaving at 16 ... However it is very hard to do that for a child in the UK - I live abroad and 6 of the children in my daughter's class of 24, and 8 of the children in the class of 20 my son will be in, in Sept, have been held back a year to start at age 7 or nearly 7, instead of 6 or nearly 6. Most of the children who start older do better...

A lot of parents here- working class with very deprived part - think the school should be responsible for everything the child learns.

HV check at 2 are very hit and miss group affairs and 3 is just a check list though nurseries are good with picking up extra problems usually.

My DC school does give a similar check list of things they'd like the DC to do and would like the parents to spend some time over the summer before school helping ensure the DC can do before starting school. They also stress the staff is approachable about any concerns.

I'd assume this is something similar so don't really get the outrage - though I supposed implementing this could be done poorly.

The toilet training thing - mine were toilet trained but older two had accidents though not our youngest DC - they weren't the only ones and it wasn't a big deal and the school worked with us to help them though by yr1 they were fine and it was possibly because they were very youngest in school year.

In Australia ALL children who are having issues with reading are assessed by a behavioral optometrist at 7. Of those 52% are found to have visual tracking or convergence issues.

I only know about this thanks to MN - eldest is showing huge progress with engaging eyes - her teachers never knew how to really help her though as parents we could see she had tracking issues.

I think the outrage comes from people blaming parents and suggesting children will never catch up, when talking about developmental 'delays' (statistically a significant proportion of children would not meet checklist requirements so 'delays is a moot point).

Hobbit you are right there is no reason for outrage, only for discussion of the fact that 1) a check-list shouldn't be used to label parents as automatically poor quality/ lazy, and 2) it may be largely redundant unless it is linked to further referrals/ help for those children who cannot do the things on the list.

I cynically imagine such a list being either propaganda, or never followed up on, or used to create data for the purpose of massaging that data to create targets the govt. can then claim to be meeting through some made up "initiative"...

DS is 4 1/2 and still poos in a nappy. He had an Autumn birthday so won't be staying school until September but many children of his age are in reception. I have been reassured by the HV that he is perfectly within the normal range and not to force the issue as this can lead to further problems but to carry on doing what I am doing and gradually building up to poos in the lavatory.

In all other ways he is perfectly ready to start school. His pooing habits are not going to affect his school in any way as he will wait until he gets home to poo.

Should be really have to stay at home for am extra year if it doesn't click before September?

Things like teaching how to tie their shoelaces or sending them in shoes with velcro tabs if they aren't able to do so. Making sure children who aren't reliably toilet trained have spare underwear in their bag, etc.

Again my DC school already ask parents to do this - and has a store of school clothing for accidents even in the later years when less tooliet and more sickness.

In fact my DC at 8 like my eldest still has Velcro shoes as do many others- though we are thinking buckles and laces should be possible for her now and it just practise needed.

They also ask that the DC can dress themselves - for P.E and school play costumes but wait till late in first tie to put to test - surprisingly many parents still don't practise this and seem surprised it's expected - I've stood next to them like when they've expressed outrage it's expected. Though the DC who can't are obviously helped - I can still see why they want the DC to do it themselves.

tiggy I think there should be scope for keeping children back 1 year (not longer) following consultation between parent, doctor, any preschool or nursery, and school... but there isn't in the UK really. I don't think children should be made to stay back because they can't try their laces ... The thing with checklists is they exclude space for common sense if misused...

Hobbit you are right there is no reason for outrage, only for discussion of the fact that 1) a check-list shouldn't be used to label parents as automatically poor quality/ lazy, and 2) it may be largely redundant unless it is linked to further referrals/ help for those children who cannot do the things on the list.

Well if they are assuming poor parenting then obviously that is a big issue.

I have seen parental expectations play a role where such a list would be a help- but they isn't the same as poor parenting.

I don't then this would have much impact and is probably sound bite / scape goating politics

The parents who really don't care and do parent poorly - wouldn't change due to a list. Plus referrals from nursery and reception classes already happen - and I image a DC struggling with this stuff would already be part of that along with other observations.

This is a basic list of skills which children need to get the most out of school. The majority of children should be able to do this by 4 or 5.

Please remember school is adapted to Thr age of the children. Sit still and listen doesn't mean sit for an hour listening to someone talk at you. It means to know if you are told to gather round in a group you sit facing the teacher, that the teacher will tell you things, that you don't wander off. I do some parenting work with 0-3 parents and this is one of the things we work into the sessions (it's parents and children together at the sessions). With the proper support and encouragement from the parents they can all manage to get sat down, even if only for a minute.

The shoe and coat thing as well. No one expecting them to tie laces. But you have no idea how many parents forget to teach their children these things because it's quicker and easier for them to put them on theirselves, it's not even bad or lazy parenting, just being in a rush and not thinking it through.

There's always a fallback here to "oh but what about Thr SN children" however with the greatest of respect I don't think we should lose sight of what most children of that age should be able to do. It's vital to encourage all children to reach their potential and not hold them back for fear of offending others surely.

My DS is 7 years old.

He can't do laces, struggles to speak to "strangers" or out loud in front of others, wasn't toilet trained until 3years8months and has only been able to use zips since christmas.

I'm pretty sure that would make me a piss poor parent by the checklists standards but given that he's been assessed by occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and educational psychologists who have all deemed him fine other than that it takes him a bit longer to process information and carry out tasks, I'll stick with that theory instead of inferring that he MUST have SN.

There's always a fallback here to "oh but what about Thr SN children" however with the greatest of respect I don't think we should lose sight of what most children of that age should be able to do. It's vital to encourage all children to reach their potential and not hold them back for fear of offending others surely.

The children with SN form a significant enough proportion of all children, to be relevant in a discussion like this. Schools need to be more inclusive.

How exactly would that checklist be enforced? Are they not allowed to start school until they can do those things? Seems like a bad idea... Surely if they have the ability to do those things but can't because their parents haven't taught them then it's better they're in school where they can learn them. Seems like categorising children as stupid and putting them behind everyone else before they've even had a chance.

But you have no idea how many parents forget to teach their children these things because it's quicker and easier for them to put them on theirselves, it's not even bad or lazy parenting, just being in a rush and not thinking it through.

For an away school trip they asked us parents to make sure our DC could make their own beds as they would be expected to.

DD1 can walk home, make her own breakfast and can use the washing machine, do her own hair though I usually still do it but I've never asked her or shown her how to make her own bed and she'd never asked to do it unlike with the other things. It never occurred to me that she couldn't.

After that I showed her and got her to practise so now she's set.

If they hadn't pointed out it was a needed skill DD1 would have struggled.

I think the shoes and coats, especially with pfb, when they start school is a similar thing.

My DM has worked in various pupil support capacities for years (they keep changing the name of the job). She's met plenty of new starters who didn't know how to open a book, because they'd never really seen one before. A fair number also weren't familiar with holding a pencil and which end to make marks with.

That said, I think checklists like this are problematic - they're a good general guideline, but there are too many other factors (SN is just one, people have raised plenty, and pointed out that children do just develop differently). I'm not against the idea of having a keep-it-in-mind sort of checklist to see if a kid is managing most of the things most kids their age would probably be able to do - but people aren't robots, and a checklist like this is just too simplistic and prescriptive.

Although a 5 year old who's never seen a book does get my judgey-pants in a ruck.

Sounds painful TheListing....I'd leave the judgey pants at home, if I were you...