to be pissed off that it's all so unachievable?

[pissedoffwithitall]

I probably am I know.

I have a lot that people would envy - really good job that I enjoy (and pays well, albeit I work hard for it), a lovely home in a very good area, enough money that I can buy treats for me and the DC when I want/replace household stuff without worrying about the cost, my health and fitness, 2 DC, friends.

But I want a partner and another child. And it's basically too late (I might have another year or so's fertility left, but nothings going to change in that time!).

It's not like I haven't tried, I've had some short-term romantic encounters over past years, but none that developed into anything serious or long term. I could've had a baby on my own, but I've already done that twice, and I wanted it to be different this time.

I know several women who divorced/separated within the last couple of years (when I'd already been single for a fair while) and they are now remarried, with a baby (or in one case, 2) and yet I'm still in the same position. I just want a family (and yes, I know I already have one with my DC, but I want more than that) and it's not going to happen.

I've just walked past the local day nursery, and felt tears welling up seeing all the parents collecting their DC. That should be me, but it won't be.

This (as my life is) isn't what I want. But I can't see how I can change it, certainly not in the time I have left.

40 isn't too old. I had my 3rd at 43.

Given a family history of menopause in early 40s, I am not convinced I will still be fertile by 43 unfortunately (I may not even be now tbh).

I may have exhausted the pool. I have looked fairly far afield; I was involved last year for a few months with a man living 50-60 miles away, I don't think a distance greater than that is workable really. I could move in 5 years, once my mortgage was paid (and DC established at college etc). However, there's no guarantee I'd be any more successful if I did. Especially as by then I'd be 5 years older!

Met 2 (longterm married) friends for drinks last night.

They confirmed they don't know anyone they would bother introducing me to - their DHs friends are either determined to stay single or already married. One of the DHs has a lot of single male employees, sadly the oldest is mid 20s. I think I can safely predict none of them are looking to 'settle down' either!

Least I tried asking :)

Great! You never know, they might meet someone in the future and think of you, whereas before they might not have realised you were looking. Also hope that you got a sympathetic ear from RL friends- a bunch of internet strangers telling you to count your blessings and up your game can be a bit much

They definitely knew I was looking! But at least it has confirmed (as I believed) that they don't know any single, available, men.

They were sympathetic, albeit they find it very puzzling I am still single, as they've been married for 15-20 years, and have no idea how rubbish it is being single/dating nowadays!

Just going by your posts on this thread, OP, it sounds very much as though the "problem" is with you. Like many women with your circumstances, you are tough, a fighter and grafter, are full of confidence and not remotely (!) shy of saying so, probably because you are proud of your achievements. There's nothing wrong with any of this.

However, the reality of the situation is that this is not the way you go about finding a husband. Husbands do provide support - emotional, practical, sometimes financial - they do allow you to have a reliable sex life, and they may also provide you with a baby.

But paid help would do all of this too.

What about what YOU have to offer? You say you are pretty but then say you're wary of dating websites that don't allow for photos before emails. You can't then go on to complain about men who are only after a good time. What actually are you offering? Are you, do you have the ability to be, giving, kind, available, caring? Is it all about you (no judgement there, you have two children and what sounds like a demanding job)? Where would a husband/partner actually fit?

I wonder if you have been single/lived a life on your own terms for so long that perhaps you've lost sight of what sharing your life with a partner is actually like.

I think I've already covered the 'kind and caring' point in one of my earlier posts. But certainly I've never been accused of being unkind, if anything I've been told I care too much, make (for example) too much effort for friends who are unreliable/dont reciprocate - but I don't do things for what I get back!

I think I have plenty to offer, one friend's husband describes me as the perfect wife (because I can cook, keep an immaculate home, have my owm financial means but also look good, know how to go out and have fun, etc).

I don't know what sharing my life with a partner is like, because I've never had one (the relationships I have had were never supportive, in any sense, and really only gave me a regular sex life- now I don't even have that!)

And before anyone suggests it, I don't want a 'friend with benefits' - they don't exist and are basically an excuse for men to get sex then sod off! I'm not prepared to be an easy lay or used like that, I want an actual mutually supportive relationship, which most men are NOT looking for, unfortunately.

I've got to say, OP, that you sound rather intimidating. You are not unreasonable to want these things, but you might be unrealistic to expect to form a successful LTR at the first attempt now, with such a track record of going solo?

Many a good looking, successful, confident man would be scared stiff of dating you based on this thread.

I know what my good qualities are, I also know what all the bad ones are too. I can be lazy. I can be tactless, I am prone to bouts of self-indulgent depressive behaviour. I have a quick (not violent, just easily roused) temper. Although I am confident, and get on with most people, I often feel very socially awkward and I am usually on the edge of a few social groups rather than the middle of any. I am a hopeless social organiser. I am great at harmless flirting, but I am useless at initiating anything with women - utterly utterly useless. So useless, that both my current & only other LTR began as a result of the poor brave woman pretty much launching herself into bed with me. The only time I tried to take the initiative to form a relationship resulted in disaster & heartbreak.

It doesn't feel like you freely reveal your shortcomings. I wonder whether you have the self confidence to acknowledge what is crap about you as well as asserting what is great? What would you change about yourself as a person if you could? ? Do you know your Myers-Briggs personality type? If so, what are the allowable weaknesses you recognise in yourself? There is that saying about liking somebody for their strengths but loving them for their weaknesses...

Personally, if I was reading some of your comments about yourself on a dating profile, I'd feel like you would have an overwhelmingly high opinion of yourself & very high expectations - there's little in the way of self-depreciation in anything you've said, and it could scare many a decent eligible man aware of his own failings away. However, reading the whole thread gives an impression that under the surface you are probably softer and more bearable!

Attractive women usually have a queue of narcissists waiting to disappoint, whilst a lot of the nice guys don't know their own worth and don't have a high enough opinion of themselves to try it.

I read somewhere once that there are 3 kinds of love - lust, romance, and attachment. Attachment is an emotional bond forged by time and understanding. Romantic love can be obsessive. All true heartbreak & unrequited love stems from here. Couples splitting up families to be together stems from here. Emotional affairs stem from here. Some people feel this attraction to others quite regularly and freely, others do not. Lust - well, pretty obvious :-)

I believe an initial romantic attraction feels different to lust, when you understand the difference.

If I allow myself to think about a woman I was attracted to in a romantic sense, I can't really focus on any one thing I find sexually attractive about her, even though I know she is fairly stunning. If I was to have a fantasy about her, I'd think about wrapping her in my arms, or something equally mild and soppy. I might even indulge in a flight of fantasy about an LTR. If I think about a woman I had a lustful attraction to, my mental image is dominated by her physical appearance and precisely what I find most sexually attractive. Any idle fantasy will be of the ONS variety.

I meet women all the time who I find attractive in the latter sense, it is much much more rare for me to feel the former type of attraction. I can only think of a few women I have ever experienced it with, and I didn't have relationships with most, and it passed off with time - like a temporary illness!

Which type of attraction is it you are looking for? It feels like you want the romantic one, but have never had a relationship on that basis before? Have you started to feel that way about anybody, even if it went nowhere?

I know quite a few people who have had the inclination towards romantic attractions driven out of them by failed relationships. They just don't get very gooey-eyed over the opposite sex, and I suspect you might fit this description to a large extent.

Problem is, if you do, then it's largely pointless in trying to force it. You'll have to start relationships based on attachment formed through friendship, or a sexual fling / FWB type thing based on lust - both probably feel like they are pointless or not getting you there, but either is closer than neither? My current (7 years and counting) LTR started as a drunken ONS and was still just a lot of good sex for some time... from small acorns...

Dreaming of the baby / loving partnership / happily ever after when you are single is like dreaming of being a millionaire when you're broke you know - it won't get you any closer.

You say FWB is just an excuse for men to get sex and sod off, but then say you 'don't even' have a sex life. Isn't sex supposed to be mutually enjoyable, rather than a commodity to be traded for security?

Being bitter about not having it all won't help you get any of it ya know!

AnotherRandomMale makes perfect sense, my FWB turned into a relationship, lust staying and attachment mixed with romantic love is growing (I hope ) strongly.

One of my male friends told me that for some men is easier to see transition from FWB to LTR than assuming every date will turn into one.

I didn't think it was possible, but I was wrong

Ah, Random male, bit unfair i think.....

Any person with an ounce of self worth knows that its totally stupid to be in a FWB type situation and be hoping for more. Its the way of maddness and heartbreak. A quick google of this, or trawl of the relationship board will tell you this.

Sex is mutually enjoyable, however, when you end up just having sex and hoping for the best, guess what, you end up just having sex with a string of men.

My marriage started as a one night stand. But there has to be something more there, for it to get past that one night stand situation, the people that have had the one night stand need to be interested in seeing each other again, and open to that... And in the OPs experience, and mine as well, there never is.

Ive had a FWB type thing that i got dumped from, because he didnt want the WB part. He literally wanted me to turn up at a moments notice, get the F and then leave. I met him on a dating site, where he stated he wanted a long term relationship... We had two dates before we had sex, then, once sex had happened, the goal posts were changed. I hear from him every 4 months or so, he still just wants the F. Hes still trawling the dating sites.....

Ive had dates where again, they are looking for relationships, i remember one,really shy guy, but i thought id give him a chance, but no. We had the date, i got home, and then he text ' no spark for me, sorry, but i would fuck you if you want' Nice.

Ive tried even just looking for a FWB, many many many men are interested in this.... Many many many men vanish after the first time as they just thought it would be an easy lay. This was an ill advised attempt at this, due to a friends advice along the lines of your advice. Didnt help me out at all, did boost my number of partners by about 6 in 3 months. Not great.

I dont think the OP is intimidating, im sure she is aware of her shortcomings, as am i. Ive had people look at my dating profile and ive been told its too self depreciating, and then ive changed it only to be told by different people its too confident, then other people say theres nothing more attractive than a confident, independent women... Cant win.

And if the OP is sorted, in her life, she only wants someone who can bring the same to the table as she can. Thats all i want. I dont want to date someone who still lives at home. Someone who, at age 30 cant use a hot water bottle and feels they would need to practise first.. wish i was kidding about that. Just recently i was 'dating' someone, he couldnt cook, he lived off toast, a few dates in, i cooked for him, cleaned the house top to bottom.. lord knows why as once i went to his i saw he lived like a teenager, dirty clothes IN the bed, food packets IN the bed, just vile. And guess what, until we had sex, he was into me. Once we had had sex, he decided he wasnt over his ex. Same old story.

Its very easy to sit in judgement of someone, tell them its them and they need to do x and x and x, without really thinking though the reprocussions.

and while you say sex shouldnt be used as a comodity, no, it shouldnt.. but then women arent there just to be fucked, ignoring any of their own needs until a man decides he wants to stay for a bit.

another example, i had a date last summer, seemed good, date was going really well, had a nice walk along a river bank, things ended up a bit heated, but i declined his offer to ' fuck in a bush' The next morning i get a text dumping me as its just not fair on me to see him again, since all he can think about when he thinks of me, is sex.

never in my life have i heard such bull.

So, while you are right in there might be three types of attraction, there are also other things at play, being a non lying, decent human being, being one... wanting to see that other person again, being another, being emotionally in a place that you are open to things progressing is another... and so on and so on.

Mocking the OP because she wants some kind of emotional attachment, and blaming her when there are other factors at play that she is not responsible for... isnt fair.

NeedsMoreCake. . "Fuck-in-a-bush" eeeuwww!

Mind you, I've been watching "First Dates" on Channel 4. DH and I were aghast at the first meet, dinner date conversation. Lots of "do you like big boobs/arses/to fuck on a first date/group sex" etc etc. Not very romantic or even just basic good first date dinner chat, there! I'm so glad I'm not 18 anymore!

TokenMale you sound normal and human and very sensible in your outlook. I wish you well.

I really am not trying to mock anybody at all... Sorry if it comes over that way.

I did also suggest friendship as a way in to more - all I was trying to say is that if you're not somebody who falls into a romantic flutter based on idealised thoughts after a couple of dates, you have to find SOME other way to start things off that isn't based on waiting for a knight in shining armour.

One of my best friends is female, 40 & largely single for 4 years - a lot of the stuff you're relating about dating websites I've heard from her as well, and I know she is a fabulous, warm hearted, funny and attractive person - so obviously a 'catch' for the right bloke.

It does seem men are a bit crap unfortunately. I can't imagine simply propositioning a woman for a shag... It's so... "ungentlemanly" I guess would be the word.

The only times I've been in a FWB situation, we were genuinely friends.

Sorry, meant AnotherRandomMale NOT TokenMale .... Bit of a short circuit in the grey matter, there. You're NOT a female, posing as a male are you?

Eliza, its rubbish i agree, and dating isnt limited to just those that are 18... so, imagine you became single and had to go through it all again. not fun.

and random male, yes, its crass when men say things like that, but its far more common than you might think, along with the cock shots and sexual messages one was to wade through.

Im sure the OP, and indeed i, if we had got a few dates in, and sex was on the cards, would gladly indulge, its just its at that point that the guy usually vanishes... if he stuck around, then friendship etc would grow and things would have a chance... the issue being that men dont seem to stick around past the first shag.

Eliza22

Thanks & no, not a female - I'm infuriatingly male, according to my fiance!

I'm not bitter, not at all. I may have feelings of 'its all so bloody unfair' but then I think people in my situation would, therefore it's quite a natural reaction.

A friend of mine went to her GP recently because she feels upset, tearful, anxious and generally very low about being single (she is early 30s, no DC),and asked if she needed anti-ds. Her GP said absolutely not, it's entirely normal to feel that way, societal/family pressure to be part of a couple etc, and rather than feeling she's wrong to be upset, she should be kinder to herself. Which kind of reinforces to me that feeling as I do isn't 'wrong' either.

I have plenty of faults. I don't always acknowledge them because I have experienced a lot of jealousy, bitchiness and general unpleasantness in the past from others, both male and female. Any weakness has been pounced upon and used to attack me. So I don't give people the ammo anymore :) for the record, I have a terrible temper (screaming, shouting, throwing things) but it passes within minutes. I can never be angry for long, can't hold a grudge, or do the 'silent treatment' many of my friends do to their partners/DC. People who don't know me find the volatility a bit scary at first I know, but it's not something men ever see really.

I am disorganised, an appalling procrastinator and inherently lazy (though I cover it well). I am superficial and shallow, judge a lot on appearance. I can't tolerate lack of effort, either in a personal or professional sense. I come from a family of very strong characters (both male and female) so find weakness very hard to deal with.

Can't remember my Myers-Briggs type, I did the test last year for work, have the results somewhere! but I know my colleague (who is a training/development director, and talked me through the results) said it was very positive how I'd scored, showed what a people person I am, and so on. Which of course I am :)

I've experienced romantic love several times, but those experiences have told me it doesn't guarantee a happy ending. I've been involved with people who turned my life from black and white to colour. Nice while it lasts...except it doesn't, generally. The last but one person I dated, we spent a lot of time sitting in the semi-darkness (long story) talking, cuddling, with me stroking his hair. It wasn't about lust. I liked everything about him. Even when writing this I am still smiling thinking about him and what an amazing, interesting person he is.

But that didn't work out. Nothing to do with me. His problem, his issue.

And that's mostly how it is. I can think as romantically as I like about men (sometimes it's lust, sometimes not) but it can't suddenly make them want a relationship if they don't. However great I am, or however acknowledging of my own shortcomings.

Re sex, I dislike being used. I don't like going to bed with a man I think I am dating, only for them to basically fuck me and fuck off. It sits ill with me. And before anyone suggests it, I am not crap in bed, so that's not it (and talking to male friends, their view is first time sex is rarely better than ok, so if a man dumps on the basis that it was just ok, he's either not had much any sex, or he was only ever after a 0NS, however good or bad it was, and it's just an excuse...).

I've never had a ONS (I've had a few over the years) that became anything more. I've had men who called themselves my boyfriend, who had sex with me and then never called me again. I won't be duped or played for a fool. I like sex, but I dislike being lied to and deceived more, and tbh, I haven't had a decent ONS since I was in my early 20s so I'd rather do without, and wait for something more worthwhile.

I think you have a rational attitude to the dating/relationship game. It's very difficult to find someone with whom you want to spend "forever" with, however long that turns out to be. I'm not a casual person and I'm not judging anyone who is but, I spent a huge chunk of my early/mid 30's with relatives/friends/total strangers shaking their collective heads and wondering "why hasn't she been snapped up?" The answer, according to most of them was that I was too choosy, too intimidating, too independent, not independent enough (!!), too attractive and therefore very off putting , too obviously wanting a relationship rather than a month of casual shagging followed by being mucked around by some total arse of a man who'd backed off, and my standards (apparently) were way too high. So, I was 37 when I finally married and 39 when I had my one and only child. I have to be grateful for that and for my beautiful ds.

Do I wish it'd been different? Do I wish I'd been better at "picking" men? Married earlier? Had kids earlier/more kids so ds wasn't an only child? All the time! I cannot change any of it. I can only move forward and deal with what I DO have.

Ah yes I've been told I am too choosy! And also not choosy enough (because I only ever seem to date men who turn out not to be relationship material, or were never looking for one in the first place). Likewise too independent (the reason my friend who is in a minimum wage civil service job is more 'successful' with men than me is because she is less threatening, apparently..) But also not independent enough because if I was I wouldn't care about not having a man. And so it goes on.

I don't know what the answer is, keep on as I am and hope my luck will change? Find an actual matchmaker? and hope she doesn't try and palm me off with red flag men who knows! :)

Well yes, you aren't childless at least and you have a fab life by the sounds of it, as you say yourself, a life many people would envy but I do understand. I think I have found the PERFECT solution!!-ADOPT!!! . That way you don't have to worry about getting into another relationship (and, let's face it, even if you did find the right guy, he may not want them/anymore etc.) and a child get's a home, it's win/win!!. What do you think?. I'de love to adopt!.

OP, I'm a bit like you in that I've raised 2 DCs completely alone, work in a high powered job (my own business) and have never found Mr Right.

I also live in a place where single mums are rare and every family my DCs have ever known, has a mum and dad or divorced parents but both pretty much involved still in their lives.

Where we differ is that every time I wonder what it might be like to have what I think I see others having, I realise that behind closed doors, the 'dream' life of cosy couples and 2 parent families is so often not really the ideal at all.

I think that the majority of man/woman relationships only work because the woman is willing to compromise, settle, self-sacrifice and bite her tongue again and again. I see two clear 'types' of couple - the submissive, 'little woman' with her 'superior' man - or the 'mothering' woman with her 'never-quite-grown-up' boy/man.

Of course lots and lots of couples don't fit those two stereotypes at all, as many posters on MN will know - but I still think that most do and that the exceptions are rare. I think that this is why you're finding it difficult to discover the right man/the right relationship - because actually he/it doesn't exist. You'd have to become the mother to the mini-man or the appeasing little woman to the 'big' man.

You don't want to do this because you're a well rounded, strong, healthy woman who realises she shouldn't have to compromise or 'play the game' just to retain a companion for life.

You've done well mothering and raising your DCs alone but you don't want to do this again alone. You know just how hard it is. You also don't want to have to mother a man. On the other hand, you don't want to disempower yourself, just to please a man. I think the reason you're stuck is that there is no solution to that particular conundrum. You're focusing on the wrong part of the equation. I don't think you'd be happy having what you think you need/want.

I think you could be happier, enjoying what you've got and 'thinking outside the box', rather than returning again and again to an outdated template for living.

Obviously, I'm speaking entirely from my own subjective experience. I think it's just that I 'heard' something in your posts that resonated with me and so wanted to share a different perspective.

I think there's more mileage in relishing what you have and enjoying it while you can. If you really, really want another baby, go it alone again - through donor sperm/egg/embryo or adoption. But don't think you're missing out on the 'dream' family-life because I don't think it exists.

If I scratch beneath the surface of the lives of my female, coupled friends, even the best relationship often reveals the woman doing all the menial domestic work, all the emotional supportiveness or spending so much time worrying about retaining their man - by worrying about their physical appearance.

Might it be possible that one day, if you find who you believe is Mr Right, you'll look back fondly on your independent life before and miss it and are only then fully able to see how good it was just to be you, solely in charge of your life? Might it be that actually what you're wanting is just more close, loving friendships, more time to enjoy what you've created, some sex and new ventures/interests to take you into the next phase of life, as your DCs leave home?

Might it be that a relationship isn't really the answer at all and could bring a whole set of unwanted problems at a time when you could and should now be relishing all you've created for yourself?

I know my view is unorthodox, as we're brought up to believe that intimate relationships are key to a fulfilled life. I'm just not sure I agree.

Very interesting post Buddhasmum

It is interesting - I do know a lot of good relationships, where there seems to be a lot of equality/harmony BUT in almost none of those are the women are in the financial position I am. I can only think of a couple of relationships among people I know where the woman is the main breadwinner, and in each one the man is a bit of a manchild type being mothered by the woman (albeit very happily - seemingly- on both sides). I couldn't do that, I like looking after a man in some ways but I don't want a helpless man I have to mother (the sort of man who has no idea how a washing machine works, has never cooked a meal from scratch etc!).

I suppose I can only hope for a man somewhere between the two - neither an overgrown baby nor so insecure I have to dumb myself down (which honestly I couldn't, which is probably why I've dated more of the former type). I would like an equal relationship, I hope that could be possible.

Honestly I don't think I can get what I want, hope for, from friendships alone. I want a relationship not just for the emotional side, but also regular intimacy, sex, etc, which I can't get otherwise (unless I want a ONS every night of the week, not an edifying thought).

Sorry, but in my rl experience, people who has been unable to have a meaningful relationship by the time they're in their mid 40s usually have some serious self issues to deal with. I don't exactly know why you want a relationship as you don't seem particularly interested in bonding with another real life human being (you know, one who has frailties and weaknesses). But if you do, I'd work on your own sense of self esteem (not the false sense you derive from checkbox lists about your prettiness, success etc) and contented ness.

Really...so what issues do you suggest I have then? I'm intrigued to know. I'm also not quite sure what you consider I should have done to demonstrate an interest in bonding with another. Most people take the view they'd like to be in an equal partnership, to feel that support/love/care for another person. I've said as much upthread.

As for me working on my self esteem, most other posters seem to be of the opinion I think too highly of myself. I don't agree with that, but it certainly doesn't need improving either :) what a bizarre and unfounded assumption!