Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

almondcake - despite my initial I have found myself agreeing with some of what you have said, especially as I have come across small businesses that have stopped employing women of childbearing age (at all levels from admin to senior professional in that field - I'm trying not to out the type of business). Their reasoning is that they can't afford to have someone off (financially and lots of other ways) for up to a year.

I'm not saying that it is correct and I fully concede that it is incredibly unfair for so many reasons. Yet, there is a part of me that can understand their position in a time where that particular field is under intense pressure financially, politically and socially.

The sexism is never overt though. It is just a case of someone else always fitting the bill better.

I had an interesting experience this morning. I'm currently working in New York - one month into a 3 month secondment at a research institute. As my eldest DD has just started school and my youngest is at nursery (they are nearly 6 and nearly 4) we decided that they would stay at home with DH. Anyway, I got into the office this morning and was having a chat with a co-worker and we started talking about our children. When she heard that mine were back in the UK she decided that I was an unfit mother, not a proper woman and needed therapy. Oh, and my DDs will also need therapy (though according to some people they will anyway because I prefer my dogs to them!!! Please, can't some people understand a joke FFS).

Certainly made an interesting start to the day!

I would like it to be assumed that all people have needs which are special to them, almond. This is what inclusivity really means, and the fact that it's constantly re-interpreted as 'concessions' shows how prejudice is deeply ingrained.

Start from assumptions like:
• Some people can both walk & climb.
~ Because not all can do both, we'll have wide passageways, stairs, ramps and lifts. Anybody can use whichever method they choose.
• Some people can eat anything and be fine.
~ Because not all can, we'll offer gluten-free, dairy-free, vegan (etc) menu options in various combinations. Anybody can choose any combination they like.
• Some people are free to drop everything for an urgent meeting.
~ Because not all are free, we'll ensure that everyone has access to all the information and we'll implement remote networking. Anyone can contribute in the way that best suits them.

Is this making sense yet?

Thats not anything to do with motherhood though?

ARGHH, zee!!!!!

No, no sense of humour allowed and everything must be taken literally

She has terrible Judgeypants OP and if yours kids are happy and cared for then so what if you're in NY but you know this anyway

Yes, it is. "Able to drop everything" is. I've mentioned other stuff in previous posts. I expect MNers to be able to think up their own additions to the list, it's not a prescription!

Pregnancy rights are not about motherhood. They are about a pregnant woman. Whether she goes on to become a mother or not is irrelevant in terms of the legislation.

It is not an offence to insult a discriminate against a woman because she is a mother but it is an offence to discriminate against her because she is a woman as this is sexist. Motherhood is not a protected characteristic.

Woman is not a protected characteristic. Perhaps it should be until such time that women have true equality.

Arguing about discrimination top trumps is facile when the discrimination arises from being a woman in itself. And that discrimination occurs whether you have no children, one child or ten children. It stems from being a woman, not a mother.

Pleasejustgo apologies for confusion post re: namechanging, I thought you said "I have now name changed".

My point stands that I still think your quote was below the belt. I have plenty of empathy for parents and do not think we should erode any rights from parents in the work place but I know Christmas etc is a sore point for some people. Not me, I hate Crimbo and will give preference to parents for summer hols etc but I expect the same afforded back to me in another way. We're all adults; give and take. Some people are takers in life, I guess?

I think that Heisenberg's points are very much to do with the practicalities of being a woman with small children - or a man with elderly parents, or a child free woman with volunteering commitments, or any of the many responsibilities that people have outside their work lives.

Garlic if only!

Candy

You're an evil beast but that's ok

In another post I did say in my company, no one had any right to specific holidays children it not. If you have children and if it wasn't an emergency then you had to find your own childcare. I didn't ever say I expected any different just that I will book whatever I could when I could as all other employees do the same.

I hope this cleared that up?

Step by step, Please! Business owners moan like fuck about inclusivity building regs but, because they're the law, they damn well have to be inclusive with their new buildings like it or not. That is the way to do it ... and don't get me started on boardroom quotas

Candy I don't mean that in anything other than a jovial manner either!

The blatant name calling that is.

keeps digging

Sorry x post! I meant pleasejuatgo qith the 60k/5k thing. Oh dont worry zee I am having no maternity leave and dh is doing 100% baby care so dunno what your colleague would make of me.

Sorry but I think I came across as sarcastic and a dig. You are reading it wrong. I genuinely do not mind giving preference to parents because as a previous childcare provider I know childcare is not always easy to find. I do work with some people who take the mick but I reckon they'd take the mick whether they were parents or not, so surely it's a selfish trait rather than a parent trait. I think you're being a bit defensive, if you've read my posts, I never criticised parents. Your post was quite accusatory, so surely you can see why some people would have felt attacked?

Pleasejustgo - I had about a minute of thinking that she was right, then thought, no, fuck it - the girls are happy and settled with their father who dotes on them, their friends, other family members and our dogs. We talk by Skype every day and DH is bringing them over for a break over Easter. So I decided to ignore the bitch her and spend time with my other lovely colleagues - a mixture of male, female, childless, parents, young, old.

No Heisen it's not but it affects the uptake of paternity ie if the woman is a sahm or gone back part time after maternity. I get the impression the majority of child carers are women? Of course there are many high earning woman and sahds and well as first time parents who may be on equal pay.

It's a step forward if course I'm not arguing again that. I saying there needs to be more equality in the work place generally.

P.S. pleasejustgo I apologise for saying 'screw you', very rude of me and uncalled for. I was upset after seeing you imply something after a stressful morning that was anything but easy but still, it was mean.

Zeezeek

Good. No one questions dads who work abroad. Ever. Why should it be any different.

I said earlier you seem to have the best of both worlds right now. Enjoy it all, I absolutely would.

More women wont have to sahm or go part time in future pleasejustgo. Everything will be different by the time our children are grown.

I called you and evil beast, we're even

"I think you have it the wrong way round. It is not that the parents are more entitled to see their children, it is that the children are entitled to see their parents. You are grown up. The children need to see their parents in a way that someone fully mature does not."

^^This. Very astute.

Yes Heisen

Hopefully it's a start as I said to more gender equality in the work place, or equal pay being another issue.

Ie not or